Brisingr Spork Chapter 24: Whispers In The Night

[pangolin20]

the_bishop8 wrote in antishurtugal, 2017-05-14 16:09:00

MOOD: annoyed

Brisingr Spork Chapter 24: Whispers In The Night

Whispers in the Night spork

Last chapter Roran and Katrina got married. This chapter opens up with Roran waking up alone in bed.

Roran spots Katrina watching the stars by the entrance to the tent and goes to join her. They have a quiet moment together, then Katrina mentions that the constellations are shaped differently where they are.

Constellations don't really change shape, but stars will disappear and new stars will show up depending on how far north or south you go, so I'm going to assume that's what she's talking about. I'm going to ignore the question of whether they've actually gone far enough south for them to not recognize any of the stars. What kind of constellations do they even have?

Starlight gleamed in her eyes as she twisted in his arms and gazed at him.

That sounds nice. I don't think stars are actually bright enough for this to work though.

Katrina's been thinking about their future together, and asks Roran how he plans to care for her and their child.

“Is that what worries you?” He smiled. “You won’t starve; we have gold enough to assure that. Besides, the Varden will always see to it that Eragon’s cousins have food and shelter. Even if something were to happen to me, they would continue to provide for you and the baby.”

That's not really a long term plan; Katrina kinda points this out, so he answers again, saying that he'll fight to defeat the empire so they can live peacefully in Carvahall again. She then points out that an army camp isn't the best place to raise a baby.

“We cannot run away and hide from the Empire, Katrina. Unless the Varden win, Galbatorix will find and kill us, or he will find and kill our children, or our children’s children. And I do not think the Varden will achieve victory unless everyone does their utmost to help them.”

Yeah, because Galbatorix has been doing his absolute best to destroy the dwarves and elves and Surda these past hundred years...

He's also missing Katrina's point, so she spells it out for him, saying she'll leave the army after she gives birth. Roran isn't happy about this, so Katrina reasons with him.

“It’s not safe here. If it were only the two of us, I could accept the danger, but not when it is our baby who might die. I love you, Roran, I love you so much, but our child has to come before anything we want for ourselves. Otherwise, we do not deserve to be called parents.”

That's a pretty responsible outlook actually. They have another moment together before Roran agrees. He tells her she should leave now so its easier for her to travel. Good advice, but she wants a midwife she can trust, and the magic users in the camp will help her if she has problems, which is fair enough.

“As soon as our child is born, you will go to Aberon, not Dauth; it is less likely to be attacked. And if Aberon becomes too dangerous, then you will go to the Beor Mountains and live with the dwarves. And if Galbatorix strikes at the dwarves, then you will go to the elves in Du Weldenvarden.”

Might as well go straight to the elves then.

“You know what this means, don’t you?”

“What?”

“I’ll just have to ensure we kill every last one of Galbatorix’s soldiers, capture all the cities in the Empire, defeat Murtagh and Thorn, and behead Galbatorix and his turncoat dragon before your time comes. That way, there will be no need for you to go away.”

This is what actually happens, which I feel ruins this whole chapter. At the very least, it downgrades this chapter to nothing but filler. If you ignore that though, then this chapter didn't feel absolutely terrible. Maybe because it's too short for Paolini to have enough room to ruin things.
Next up we have Orders by Predak. Then we have Footprints of Shadow, by myself.

40 comments

[1]

doomotter
May 15 2017, 12:44:14
Constellations don't really change shape, but stars will disappear and new stars will show up depending on how far north or south you go, so I'm going to assume that's what she's talking about. I'm going to ignore the question of whether they've actually gone far enough south for them to not recognize any of the stars. What kind of constellations do they even have?

I recall that PaoPao once claimed Alawhatsit was roughly the size of the Western United States. I grew up in the Northern U.S., and have visited Southern California. There was no major change in the constellations. I have a friend who lived in Hawaii who said that it isn't spectacularly different that far south. I think PaoPao was just copying something he read in a better book without realizing its impossibility.

[1A]

dinogrrl
May 15 2017, 13:23:57
Yeah, I've traveled all over the continental US and across the pond to visit my Irish relatives and I've never noticed a significant change in the constellations in any of those places (I did, however, notice change in length of daylight pretty quickly after traveling from the American South to Ireland!). I think that's something you'd have to make a pretty significant change in latitude to really pick up on. Unless you've been trained to navigate by the stars, in which case you would definitely note even small changes in constellations.

[1A1]

syntinen_laulu
May 15 2017, 17:04:58
Then again, if you live somewhere there's no artificial light out of doors, no weather forecasts, no satnavs and no enclosed forms of transport, you will see the stars a whole lot more often; you'll see them far more more clearly (light pollution in the developed world now is such you have to travel to wilderness areas these days to see stars that used to be visible over towns); and you'll need to study the night sky to find your way around and to judge tomorrow's weather. So yes, you very likely would notice changes that most modern western people just wouldn't pick up on.

[1A1A]

theepistler
May 15 2017, 19:41:53
That's very true. I've been out in the desert several times, and it's incredible how vast the sky is and how vivid the stars are. And given that Paolini lives out in the sticks it's possible he's actually writing from personal experience here.

Mind you, I've never noticed stars reflecting in someone's eyes. They're just not big enough for that. I'm kinda picturing Katrina with the eyes of an anime girl right now.

[1A1A1]

anontu
May 17 2017, 15:50:35 Edited: May 17 2017, 15:52:22
Did someone speak my language?

[Caption: Yui Hirasawa from K-ON! She is a brown-haired girl surrounded by sparkles. Two sparkles shine in her eyes.]

[1A1A1A]

theepistler
May 17 2017, 18:05:45
LOL! Yup, that's what I was picturing.

[1A1B]

dinogrrl
May 16 2017, 09:53:55
Tru dat.

[1A1C]

Anonymous
May 19 2017, 02:22:35
People actually worked out the distances provided in the book and, if I remember correctly, Alagaesea is actually only half the size again of Britain. I don't think a non navigator would notice a difference from that small a latitude change. In fact I don't imagine anyone but a sailor or trader would even study the stars that much in ye old times. I mean Katarina doesn't have all that much reason to study the night sky. She lived all her life in one small rural village where the roads are known and there's no reason to travel far afield. I would buy that it was just a mild hobby of hers and she and Roran spent some romantic nights though.

[1A1C1]

Anonymous
May 19 2017, 02:23:17
romantic nights stargazing I meant to say.

[1B]

syntinen_laulu
May 15 2017, 16:42:25 Edited: May 15 2017, 16:56:44
I think PaoPao was just copying something he read in a better book

My candidate would be The Farthest Shore, in which Ged and Arren sail thousands of miles south from Gont and as they do they nightly see more and more of a constellation new to them in the southern sky. It's a very vivid image in the book, and as Paolini has clearly stolen so much from Le Guin it's very likely this is where he took it from. Given the geographical absurdities he happily put into his map of Alaglaglag, you wouldn't expect him to worry about whether the total latitude difference would be enough for the night sky to be noticeably different.

Then again, playing devil's advocate, if we suppose Alaglaglag to be a smaller planet than ours, wouldn't that shorten the distance you'd have to go south or north to see different constellations?

(Re daylight hours: yes, you don't have to go very far north/south to see a noticeable difference. From where I am in North Kent to Dundee is less than 500 miles of latitude, but today in Dundee they will have about an hour and 20 minutes more daylight than here.)

[1B1]

theepistler
May 15 2017, 19:43:52
If Alaglag is on a smaller planet than ours, wouldn't that change the way gravity works there? :/

[1B1A]

paulp1993
May 15 2017, 23:29:29
All I know is that when we were in the Seychelles recently, you could still see Orion and one of the two Ursas (I don't remember which one). The only difference was that you saw a lot less of the northern sky and a lot more of the southern, like the Southern cross in the Scorpius-Centaurus association.

So just a handful of miles south in Alalag shouldn't cause a massive difference in what you see, if a flight from Stockholm (59deg north) to Praslin (4deg south) still allows for shared constellations.

[1B1B]

zelaznamaska
May 15 2017, 23:59:00
That would explain why Eragon is able to jump so high he's practically flying (I think there is a scene like that either in Brisingr or in Inheritance?).

[1B1C]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 13:41:11
A smaller planet with a denser composition could have similar gravity to Earth--or even greater gravity. Look at it like a black hole. They are created when stars collapse in on themselves. Thus they are smaller than their parent stars but have much more powerful gravitational fields.

[1C]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 10:57:51
I've listened to astrophysics classes!
So the Earth rotates and revolves around the Sun, that we all know. A solar day is 24 hrs long, but a stellar day only 23hrs56mins. That means if I'm in the northern hemisphere and look to the east on Christmas, Orion will be there, but when I look again in 6 months, he won't be . He was there 12 hours ago, but then it was day so I couldn't see him. People know about these periodic changes and correct for them accordingly.
Also, of course, what stars you see depends on your latitude, but there are two fixed points in the sky: the north and south pole. Most of the constellations around them are also familiar and always there, and those constellations are called circumpolar. You can see all circumpolar northern constellations from the equator because the north pole is on the horizon and all will be visible throughout the year.
Stars are really far away. So, yeah, I'm also calling bull on this one, Paolini.

[1C1]

kayliolayskie
May 16 2017, 18:35:19
Ooh thanks for the astro info, anon!

[1D]

anontu
May 17 2017, 15:41:50 Edited: May 17 2017, 15:46:39
I think PaoPao was just copying something he read in a better book without realizing its impossibility.

Devil's advocating: He could have been using it as a point to say "look how alien and different this place is". I've seen it done a lot to the point where it's a trope. The stars a different (does being in a fantasy world give it the excuse?) cementing that they're in a different place.

[1D1]

theepistler
May 17 2017, 18:06:18
At least he didn't go with the "this setting has TWO moons instead of one!" trope.

[1D1A]

anontu
May 17 2017, 19:12:25 Edited: May 17 2017, 19:12:33
I wasn't aware this is a trope, though now I think about it, it's been done a heck of a lot.

[2]

theepistler
May 15 2017, 16:47:13
Finally a character with some godsdamned common sense. I think this is the only time anybody really bothers to consider the future. And how typical - Roran's "solution" is to share his violent fantasies about killing everyone who causes him the slightest inconvenience. I just love how he calls Shurikan a "turncoat" when the poor bloody dragon was supposedly FORCED to bond with the Evil King. The constant victim-blaming Paolini and his heroes indulge in is really disgusting. Shurikan, Murtagh and Thorn are allegedly only serving the King under duress, but they're condemned as "evil" and deserving of death. Which really makes the "good guys" look like assholes.

This chapter actually could have made for some nice character development. Except that, as with all the other potentially character developing stuff in this series, it will never be mentioned again.

[2A]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 02:44:14
This might be One of the best chapters of the book, and I think the best so far.

You could even play devil's advocate here and think that Roran only said those last sentences as an hyperbole, and there is pretty much nothing wrong with the chapter left.

(And now that I think of it, ¿It is well know un the Varden that the Imperials are supposed to be mindslaved?
I remember a comment at the end of the book, but it was about the civilians. I don't remember anything about the soldiers un Roran's chapters)

[2A1]

theepistler
May 16 2017, 07:41:20
Every single Imperial soldier is a "mind slave", apparently. That's why none of them rebel after Galbatorix's suicide. Not that any of the alleged heroes feel a jot of sympathy for them, or show them any mercy whatsoever.

And I don't care if what Roran said was hyperbole (which it is). It's still a disturbingly bloodthirsty and savage thing to say. His solution to EVERYTHING is needless violence and brute force. Hell, he even uses it on Katrina! In the next book when they have a disagreement he threatens to tie her up, and later on when she objects to him letting Bird Git kill him he physically restrains her and then makes Eragon forcibly restrain her as well, while speaking in a "cold voice".

He doesn't say he'll protect her come what may, or that he'll lay down his life for her if he has to. No, instead he brags about how he'll kill everybody, which doesn't come across as hyperbole so much considering the guy single-handedly slaughters 193 enslaved Imperial soldiers in a chapter or so while laughing and grinning like a bloodthirsty lunatic. Which is neither heroic or noble. It's just... disturbing and horrible. Hardly the guy I'd want looking out for my welfare.

In any case, if either one of them had the brains of a prawn Katrina wouldn't be staying with the Varden anyway. Why the hell are they going out on the warpath with useless dependents tagging along? What possible use could a pregnant butcher's daughter serve? Or Helen the spoiled little rich girl? I'd say it's a case of Paolini wanting to eat his cake and have it too - he wants his "heroes" (I'm so sick of even pretending to call them that) to be out on the warpath, fighting in big battles, but he also wants them to be able to come back to a comfy home with a wifey wife to do the cooking and cleaning. Even if that doesn't make any sense. I mean really - when Roran goes back to his tent it's written exactly like he's just returned to his nice little cottage with the white picket fence and the happy pregnant wife there with dinner in the oven. Even though they have a fucking mess tent. Where is Katrina even getting this food?

[2A1A]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 23:15:22
One question: you say that killing lotes of enemies is not badass but disturbing, and yet in en older post I saw you saying that it WAS badass, but the people un this series are not badass characters and it dotes not work, por something.

Can you please explain it a bit more clearly?

[2A1A1]

theepistler
May 16 2017, 23:34:46
I don't recall saying that. I suspect you're twisting my words a bit there, fella.

Killing lots of people isn't badass in and of itself. The important distinction is in how it's handled. If a character kills lots of people and this is acknowledged as a violent and nasty thing to do, but that character also manages to be very charismatic and interesting and has reasons to act as they do which are at least semi-sympathetic or make logical sense, then that character has the potential to be a badass.

If a character kills lots of dudes and is still treated as a shining pillar of virtue and nobility, nobody has any real problems with it, there's no proper justification for it and the character makes zero attempt to change their ways, it's disturbing and the character isn't badass - just hateful.

[2A1A1A]

minionnumber2
May 17 2017, 01:27:14
It also depends on who they're killing. I tend to have very manly tastes, so i love movies where you have someone carving a dent into the population. If they're doing it against the odds, like John McClain taking out a whole bunch of hevily armed terrorists in Die Hard, you're a bad ass. If you're slaughtering a bunch of people who have no chance against you when there are other options, you're a bully. Context matters in these kinds of things and Paolini has never considered the context behind any of his 'bad ass warriors'.

I kind of want to write a mini-article on the art of writing bad ass (while showing how Paolini failed at every turn) when i finally save up for a new
computer...

[2A1A1A1]

theepistler
May 17 2017, 02:00:44 Edited: June 21 2017, 22:43:58
Yeah, that too. The soldiers Ergy and Co. mercilessly slaughter aren't even evil - most of them are just doing their duty, usually against their will. I'm reminded of a short story I wrote in which the protagonists - wrongly convicted criminals who are on the lam from the law - are chased by cops. One of them says they should just shoot the officers, but another points out that the cops are innocent men just doing their jobs, and killing them would be wrong. So they don't fight back; they just run away. Even though killing the cops would give them a nice head start. Because while they don't want to get shot or arrested, they also don't want to kill people unless there's absolutely no alternative.

I would argue that it's way more noble and heroic to avoid killing than to gleefully slaughter anyone who gets in your way. Revenge is easy. Mercy and forgiveness is hard.

[2B]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 14:03:08
By modern standards it's common sense. By medieval standards she probably wouldn't be there in the first place, and if she were, she would not leave even because of the child.

These were people with such high infant mortality due to poor healthcare that if I recall correctly, normally you didn't put too much value on a child until the kid grew to 2 or 3 years old. Because probably, your child was not going to survive.

As for being there at all... some women did follow camps to attend their husbands, but they would also have taken care of nurse duties etc. except Alagaesia is meant to be a medieval society, and women health professionals often got accused of witchcraft. Most soldiers attended their own gear, plus cooking and cleaning. Part of most soldiers' training throughout history has included self reliance and gear maintenance. So the soldiers can presumably sew, cook, set up camp, and keep their gear in good order.

Most ladies who chose to follow war camps would be selling goods or services (someone needs to be able to make new gear, shoe a horse, or repair a cart), or, of course, sex. Others might be interested in courting those of high rank, to become mistresses and gain material wealth. Some might be looters and thieves. As such, Katrina or any other woman not involved directly in fighting or maintaining the camp realistically should not be present. It could be very dangerous for her if mistaken for the average camp following woman! Never mind the fact that pregnancy surely makes it harder to travel or that the travel may be bad for the unborn child.

Basically I'm saying it's irresponsible of her to be there in the first place.

I don't argue that it is good to worry about the baby, but she is already in a war camp while pregnant and has not made any move to leave thus far. She could have lost the baby at any time. War camps are not resorts! Not even for the wealthy! Why suddenly worry now? It's inconsistent. And, if a woman were going to be in a war camp while pregnant, most likely she'd stay on to continue her duties after the birth. That may in fact even be expected of her. I mean, after all they let her stay this long, so she must be providing some kind of invaluable service to the camp!

[2B1]

syntinen_laulu
May 16 2017, 23:09:26
Actually no medieval army moved without a contingent of washerwomen, whether freelance or official. Even Crusading armies couldn't do without them but tried to specify that they should all be old or ugly, so as not to tempt the troops into sin.

15th-century Swiss mercenary troops routinely had a number of young women 'on the strength' (i.e. getting paid) as support troops - washing, foraging, nursing, managing baggage animals, etcetera; when cantons and cities raised citizen levies, they did the same. It was normal.

Also, the idea 'medieval women health professionals often got accused of witchcraft' is a myth. Their trade was so normal that they'd have had to do something seriously dodgy, or make a dangerous enemy, for such a thing to be suggested. And witchcraft accusations in large numbers really belong to the early modern period, not the Middle Ages at all.

[2B1A]

theepistler
May 17 2017, 18:14:52
Hah, I remember that from the four-part Crusades documentary I watched as a kid! They did this whole segment on the significance of Crusader washerwomen. It was so bizarre. Apparently during one campaign the Crusaders gave all the camp followers the boot as a show of piety... but the washerwomen stayed. Even when negotiating with the enemy they'd take pains to ensure the washerwomen got safe passage (and the enemy was quite happy to do this).

Mind you, in an age was disease was that rampant, it was probably kind of important to have someone around who could get the lice out of your underpants.

[3]

torylltales
May 15 2017, 20:00:36
Katrina shows that she has a pair, for the second and last time (if I recall correctly). As I remember, she reverts back to being a nonentity fairly quickly.

[4]

pipedreamno20
May 15 2017, 20:20:33
Hm. What a quick chapter. Is it just me or does Katrina not give birth until afterwards anyway making this "what if" conversation moot? Either that or she gives birth in Brisingr (never read it until now) or I completely forgot about it in Inheritance?? Which is probable.

[4A]

the_bishop8
May 15 2017, 23:24:40
That's pretty much what I said. :P

“I’ll just have to ensure we kill every last one of Galbatorix’s soldiers, capture all the cities in the Empire, defeat Murtagh and Thorn, and behead Galbatorix and his turncoat dragon before your time comes. That way, there will be no need for you to go away.”


This is what actually happens, which I feel ruins this whole chapter.

[4B]

theepistler
May 15 2017, 23:40:46
Yup. She gives birth offscreen in a couple of anticlimactic sentences well after Galbatorix is dead. She might as well not have been pregnant in the first place for all the impact it actually has. Like many others before him Paolini fell into the old "first comes love, then comes marriage, then comes a baby in a golden carriage" trope. "Okay, so they're in love and got married... what else is there to the relationship? Uhhh, babies! Yeah, that's it! That's how you know they're really together!"
I thought like that when I was 13.

[4B1]

Moris Kurth
May 16 2017, 01:46:27
To be honest, I never really got the feeling that they were actually a couple. It was said they were married and they had a baby and all, but they never really felt like an actual couple.
A relationship is made of two equal partners, both being relevant to eachother. But in this case, Katrina becomes irrelevant soon after this short chaper, and it comes across as if she doesn't matter to Roran. She just becomes an object that chimes in once in a while, with Roran not even giving two fucks about her reputation (Washing bandages, anyone?), well-being (He threatened to tie her to a tree trunk if she doesn't let him do her job, and was serious about it) or even future beyond "Run away when I die, to people I don't know.". Remember, this is also a guy that roped her into a marriage without any money, home, or even a family with either to back him up besides Eragon Mc-I-Am-So-Special-I-Could-Fart-Rainbows-If-I-Wanted, who (If I need to remember you) also doesn't have a single coin to his name.

Side Note: Sloan's family seems to consist of people with clear, rational thought... but get both shoved into undesirable fates later on.

[4B1A]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 02:53:11
Yeah, another víctimas of Paolini's lack of imagination:
Katrina turnos into Roran's handbag soon afther this. She is there to make Roran look good by 21th century standards for no in-universe reason, and to wipe his self-doubts away, much like Saphira with Eragon.

(Granted, you could arge that someone that lo es you would try to relieve you from your emotional burdens, but still)

I challenge anyone in this site to tell me three good contributions that someone who is a BUTCHER'S DAUGHTER could do to the story/rebellion. I guarantee you that almost any o those ideas will be better that what Paolini did.

[4B1A1]

vaskrslacigla
May 16 2017, 08:15:57
Someone who is a butcher could serve as surgeon.
For bad injuries amputation was a way to go back in old times.

[4B1A2]

kayliolayskie
May 17 2017, 18:33:42
Innovated a new form of sharp bladed things that makes it easier to cleave flesh and bones? Ha

[4B1A3]

Anonymous
May 19 2017, 02:42:49
Be an actual butcher...

[4B1B]

Anonymous
May 16 2017, 14:23:50
On the topic of her reputation, being in a war camp while not being a soldier or doing any specialized tasks makes her a standard camp follower. If Roran cared about her reputation or their future child, he'd have found a place in a town or village away from the battlefront and had her stay there. Medieval women did lots more than cook and clean, and if Paolini had done any research, he'd know that. Managing the household meant managing the family business. There would also be cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, milking, egg-gathering, butchering (on special occasions--one did not waste meat), and helping the men of the house with their trade, up to and including doing the job herself if the man/men were away, incapacitated, or even just lazy. If a husband died and he had no sons or only very young sons, his wife would have to take up his trade and his position in the guild! And she would be paid less for her work, even if it were the same or better quality.

Ahem. My point is, there's no reason Katrina could not have been set up to build a life for the two of them.

Or she could also have been a warrior herself and not been pregnant at all. A husband/wife warrior duo would have maybe made them feel more equal. Or, Katrina might have intervened at an auspicious time and saved Roran's life, or even proven to be a master strategist, thus validating her presence in a war camp. I'd even be great with it if her gender role compliant actions helped out in a more significant way than just making the boys more comfortable. Maybe she could have sung the song that boosted the entire camp's morale when everyone was ready to give up (but nope, can't have some human upstage the elves!), or maybe she could have organized with the other women to make sure there was sufficient winter gear and that rations were such that all had sufficient good quality food to eat (no more lavish meals for Eragon or Nasuada--that is wasteful when war means supplies are limited).

Katrina could have been interesting. Instead she was just an incubator.

[4B1B1]

theepistler
May 18 2017, 01:42:08
You're right. Katrina had SO much potential as a character. She's supposed to be a feisty self-willed woman who runs her own life - she did after all defy her overprotective father so she could marry her boyfriend of whom daddy did not approve, and later attacked the soldiers who came to kidnap her, albeit in the most stereotypically girly manner possible (newsflash: real women don't scratch people with their fingernails). But the moment she's married off to Roran she becomes a useless doormat who plays precisely zero role in the story other than being his emotional crutch, babymaker, laundress and sandwich supplier. It's so incredibly insulting, not to mention sexist as hell.