Brisingr Spork: Chapter 33: Kiss Me Sweet.

[pangolin20]

thegharialguy wrote in antishurtugal, 2017-09-15 17:51:00

Brisingr Spork: Chapter 33: Kiss Me Sweet.

Hello, I’m the Gharial Guy embarking on my first spork. And I got a real special one here today. Perhaps the shortest chapter Paolini has ever written. Normally brevity is something you’d pray for in Paolini’s work but even when I first read this one my was “Seriously? What was that for?” It always struck me that the shortness of this chapter wouldn’t be as noticeable if it was used as a cap stone to the previous chapter. Give us just one chapter with a clear focus on the feelings of the “characters important to Eragon”. But I suppose it’s Paolini’s strict policy to keep only one perspective to one character per chapter. Personally I think that’s a bit limiting as really what’s the difference? You still have those diamond ellipses anyway conveying the change in perspective. Just save yourself a page break and combine the similar elements into a more cohesive reading block. Ultimately it’s a very minor and mostly irrelevant point but I’m curious to know what other people’s opinions on it are (of course the best decision would obviously be to cut these two irrelevant alternate perspective chapters and pretty much this entire book).

Anyway onto the actual spork. Kiss Me Sweet is very similar to Whispers In the Night in that it’s about Roran and Katrina hanging out at home talking about stuff. But in the previous chapter they were talking about their future and what to do with their baby. Which could have potentially lead to interesting decisions and plot points (spoiler: it didn’t). Here they’re just talking about… nothing. Roran has some minor bout of PTSD that just seems wildly out of character when he’s later slaying people by the hundreds and bragging about it. And then Katrina just tells him he’s awesome and they go to sleep. That’s more or less it. But I have some specific things to say so let’s get as much meat as we can out of this thing for my first spork.

Waking, Roran extricated himself from Katrina’s smooth arms and sat bare-chested on the edge of the cot they shared. He yawned and rubbed his eyes, then gazed at the pale strip of firelight that glowed between the two entrance flaps, feeling dull and stupid with accumulated exhaustion. A chill crept over him, but he remained where he was, motionless.

So what exactly happens here in this first paragraph. Roran sits up in bed and…does nothing. He just sits up and stays there. Have you ever found yourself doing that? The answer is probably maybe. At least I know I have. But when I do it’s sort of due to extreme tiredness and sort of semi sleepwalking. Which would accurately describe the “feeling dull and stupid” only Roran’s not sleep walking. He seems to be awake because he can’t sleep as he speaks very clearly to Katrina (who isn’t at all drowsy or upset about being woken). So if it is a case that he can’t sleep, then he’s just sitting up for absolutely no reason. He isn't getting up to have a walk and clear his mind. He's just sitting up for no reason and waking his wife in the process.

She was silent for a while. “Every time you leave, I feel as if less of you returns to me. You have become so grim and quiet. . . . If you want to tell me about what is troubling you, you can, you know, no matter how terrible it is. I am the daughter of a butcher, and I have seen my share of men fall in battle.”

So from this section we can infer that Roran is going on more missions than are depic- wait what? She’s seen her far share of men fall in battle? When? During her wedding? Doubtful, she was pretty far from the action at that point considering Eragon and Saphira had to jump half way across the camp to get somewhere. And if that is the occasion then it could only have been from a pretty far distance. Other than that she’s never been around for any of the battles in the series save for that minor skirmish where the people of Carvahall managed to kill like a dozen soldiers and suffer no losses (I think, it’s been a while and I’m not going to search to verify the results now. Suffice to say it was not what I’d call a battle in scope or size) and I doubt she was on the front lines for that.

“A true warrior,” she said, “does not fight because he wishes to but because he has to. A man who yearns for war, a man who enjoys his killing, he is a brute and a monster. No matter how much glory he wins on the battlefield, that cannot erase the fact that he is no better than a rabid wolf who will turn on his friends and family as soon as his foes.”

This isn’t a bad sentiment really. Katrina has a point, people who are excited and eager to kill are generally ass hats (I assume, I’ve never met someone with an active love of killing and I don’t particularly want to). But that is the way people were expected to behave back in ye olde times. So really what is Katrina basing this shockingly liberal opinion on? And how much stock does Roran actually take in this way of thinking? Because this is the same man who slaughters people by the dozens in his next few chapters. I love pacifism and a distaste for fighting. It’s great! We should all be peaceful and loving people. But I seriously question why this message is in the book when it’s just not supported at all by the narrative. It’s like Paolini wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Say killing is wrong while at the same time saying killing is cool. At best this could cause a book with layered themes and a variety of viewpoints, but here, it just makes this particular chapter a waste of the readers time as it has no bearing on anything further in the plot.

Next they talk about Gerand, the folk hero that inspired Roran to use a remarkably ill-suited weapon (that’s remarkably effective). Katrina describes him as the greatest warrior of his age. Which I question highly. Were there dragon riders in this guy’s age? Surely there were eleven dragon riders since that whole thing happened before humans populated the land. Immediately afterwards Katrina talks about how Eragon and wizards don’t count when talking about great warriors because they’re hacks. But I think my question still stands, can anyone truly be a great warrior if they can’t achieve the same level of impact as any low ranking dragon rider or elf? I mean, sure it is grossly unfair but it is the case. Maybe Gerand and Roran should be considered better men because they lack super powers (spoilers, they’re not, at least Roran isn’t) but objectively they’re not better warriors.

Then Katrina goes on to fanwank about how amazing Roran is by recapping his deeds. Katrina calls Roran valorous for slaying the twins. Way that conflict went down as far as I remember was him sneak attacking the first and then basing the brains in of the second one when he was screaming in misery and agony. Pragmatic, but not exactly what I’d describe as valorous.

“Still, I wish this war were at an end. I wish I could till a field again and sow my crops and harvest them when they ripened. Farming is backbreaking work, but at least it is honest labor. This killing isn’t honest. It is thievery . . . the thievery of men’s lives, and no right-minded person should aspire to it.”

Don’t forget the actual thievery Roran. The Varden is going around invading people’s lands and taking their stuff.

“As I said.”
“As you said.” Difficult as it was, he made himself smile. “I have forgotten myself. Here I am burdening you with my troubles when you have worries enough of your own.” And he placed a hand over her rounding womb.

So Roran’s comment about thieving seems completely unnecessary in context of the next few lines. The discussion came to a pretty neat close with Katrina saying “You’ll always have me” but then Roran continues talking for another paragraph about wanting to till the land only to shut up before Katrina can even give her full response (which would have been a repeat of what she already said). Since there’s no response or significant element established within that paragraph, it’s completely irrelevant and should have been cut. So yes, even in his shortest chapter, Paolini still manages to ramble.

So then we get an interesting scene where Katrina says Roran’s troubles are her troubles. Roran basically says vice versa regarding her time with the Raz’ac and her response,

She withdrew an inch or two from him, and he saw her eyes become bleak and listless, as they did whenever she fell to brooding over the time she had spent imprisoned in Helgrind. “No,” she whispered, “some troubles no one else should have to endure.”

She shows some genuine pain and trauma from her past experiences! This is probably the most interesting thing Katrina has done throughout the entire series. Hell I’d say it’s more emotion than is displayed between Roran and Eragon combined throughout four books. And what does Paolini do with it? You guessed it, absolutely nothing. Roran immediately ignores it and the plot never focuses on it again. Even though it’s firmly established here that this is not the first time Katrina has acted this way. Or maybe he ignores it, it’s possible the next line is meant to be some show of physical comfort. Which wouldn’t exactly help with the ongoing trauma she’s suffering as he can’t be around all the time to act as her security blanket.

“Ah, do not be sad.” He pulled her closer and rocked back and forth with her and wished with all his might that Eragon had not found Saphira’s egg in the Spine. After a while, when Katrina had grown soft in his arms again, and even he no longer felt quite so tense, he caressed the curve of her neck. “Come, kiss me sweet, and then let us return to bed, for I am tired, and I would sleep.”

So this sounds comforting but let's try and visualize the situation. Roran is still sitting on the edge of the bed and Katrina is in the bed. How exactly is he rocking her back and forth? As she crawled out of the bed and is sitting beside him? Is she lying on his lap? Does he kind of have her in a grapple so her head is poking out from beneath his arm pit? Having a sense of where your characters are positioned in a scene is really important for making a world feel real. Otherwise the characters might as well be talking in a white void. Minute references to movements every now and then also help to break up the dialogue with something else.

I'm not all that eager to read any Paolini erotica but it strikes me that sex is something that would happen between a newlywed couple at this point but instead they just kind of sit there in this really awkward position. It could have even been a branch to the previous chapter by having Saphira interrupt him. Also is that iambic pentameter? Not even sure but something is definitely telling my subconscious that the style of that last line is very out of place. Do we have any poets among us who can analyze it?

Anyway the chapter ends with Roran dreaming he’s back at that whirlpool and wondering how they can escape. This, and Roran’s line about wishing Eragon never found the egg, is another interesting idea that is never touched upon again. Namely Roran’s distaste for this entire situation and certain level of resentment towards Eragon. Remember when he punched Eargon at the end of the last book? Yeah this is the only time those sort of feelings return in the remainder of the series as far as I can recall. Wouldn’t it be really interesting for Eragon to love someone that outwardly hated him (I mean someone besides Arya XD She has to subdue all that contempt due to being coworkers)? Of course I can’t feel too much sympathy for Roran as he’s pulling the age old moaning of “What can I do to escape this shitty situation!” when the answer is mind numbingly simple. Just move to Surda like it was suggested Katrina do. This aint your war bro and you’re not so massively important that it’ll be won or lost without you. Well he is but only because of the massive amount of plot armour.

That’s it from Kiss Me Sweet. I managed to ramble on twice as long as the chapter's word count. There’s some interesting ideas in there but ultimately, like almost every single thing in this book, it goes absolutely nowhere and achieves nothing. I bet I could tear this leaf out of the book, give it to a fan and well over 90% of them wouldn’t even realize its missing.

69 comments

[1]

thegharialguy
September 15 2017, 19:58:57
Wow guys. Can you seriously believe there's been 33 chapters so far? And not like short two paragraph chapters you find in some books. 33 full length chapters with basically nothing to show for it.

[2]

torylltales
September 15 2017, 22:01:38
The only thing I can think of when I read the chapter title:

Watch on YouTube

[3]

theepistler
September 15 2017, 22:50:59
This chapter irritated me to no end, in part because it's so dishonest and full of bullshit retcons and dropped plot/character threads. It's amazing how many he
manages to cram into such a small number of pages. Since when was Katrina an experienced war wife? She's been with the Varden for all of a week! And what does
being the daughter of a butcher have to do with seeing men fall in battle? And why is she talking about all the times Roran has "come back to [her]" when they've been
separated exactly twice? And since when has Roran become "grim and quiet"? I've seen zero evidence of that. The only thing that's changed about him since he
became Mr Badass is the sudden appearance of a ridiculous ego. It's like Paolini wants to make out like his heroes are suffering from the horrors of war, but there's
nothing shown to actually indicate that. This is the first and only time Katrina acts as if she's traumatised, and Roran never acts traumatised, period. Eragon has a
couple of nightmares which he instantly recovers from, and that's it.

The reason why chapters and scenes such as this one are so annoying in this trilo- uh, cycle - is that they never go anywhere. None of the character development seen
here will be followed up on. The whole issue about Katrina's pregnancy is null and void because neither she nor the child are ever in any danger, and she never has to
leave the Varden for safety's sake. Which she absolutely should. If Roran didn't have the brains of a prawn he'd have seen to it that she went somewhere safe for the
duration of the war rather than dragging her along on a fucking military campaign in which they could all be (allegedly) turned into Crispy Critters at any moment. Does
this selfish asshole really care that little about the safety of his wife and child? Does Katrina have no sense of self-preservation? The idiot traipses all the way to
Galbatorix's front door for gods' sakes! And Roran lets her do it! Gah.

I mean, really - if you're going to introduce this sort of thing and never do anything with it, why bother? Either you do it or you don't. If you're just going to make a few
token mentions and then forget all about it in the next chapter, please stop wasting our time. Which is exactly why these parts of the Cycle bug us so much: because
Paolini is wasting our time and we all know it.

[4]

vorpal_tongue
September 16 2017, 01:31:37
NO. DEAR GOD NO I AM NOT KISSING A GHARIAL YOU CAN BLOW IT OUT OF YOUR AAAaahh it's a Sporking chapter? Damn, scared the crap outta me there.

Perhaps the shortest chapter Paolini has ever written.

Pretty sure there was one chapter in the Green Brick that was a page or two. The one with Roran and Nar Gargleblaster before a siege.

[4A]

thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 01:36:39
You wouldn't kiss a gharial? But look at em. They're so cute <3

[4A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 03:12:52
They are, aren't they? Just look at this dopey smile!


[Caption: Picture of a gharial]

I wanna give him a head rub between the eyes like I do with cats between the ears.

Then again, my opinions of cuteness should probably be taken with a grain of salt, since I think daphnias are cute.

[5]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 03:32:31
Blech, that chapter title. Makes me gag every time. Can you get any more cloying and generic with your romantic dialogue, Paolini?


Wait, no, don't answer that. You probably could.

"Waking, Roran extricated himself from Katrina’s smooth arms and sat bare-chested on the edge of the cot they shared. He yawned and rubbed his eyes, then gazed at the pale strip of firelight that glowed between the two entrance flaps, feeling dull and stupid with accumulated exhaustion. A chill crept over him, but he remained where he was, motionless."

This inspires a There, I Fixed It:

Roran woke with a start and pushed away Katrina's arms to sit at the edge of the bed, panting. A pale strip of firelight glowed at the entrance to the tent, casting it an eerie red. Chills ran over his body like crawling spiders, and he shuddered, feeling weak and stupid.

Removed excess words, turned the firelight into legit scene-setting, and emphasized Roran's emotions, which should be the focal point of this scene.

One of the things that really annoys me in this chapter is that we have a couple from a small, isolated village in an intimate setting... talking like nobles at a formal
meeting. All Paolini's peasant characters talk like nobles, but it's especially galling here because it's a married couple in bed with each other. That is not the place for
fancy talk in the voice of the surrounding prose, Paolini.

I'm not all that eager to read any Paolini erotica

Neither am I... but can you imagine how hilarious it would be? I mean, you just know he's the kind of author who would call Roran's penis his "manhood," like, all the time. Plus, I don't see any evidence of Paolini having any real romantic relationships, so... does he actually have any experience to write from? Either way, I'm pretty sure any Paolini couple would have the most ridiculous mind-blowing Mary-Sue sex ever, cloaked in ridiculous lyricism that made us all laugh and vomit at the same time. It would be gloriously bad.

[5A]

thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 03:46:48
“Come, kiss me sweet, and then let us return to bed, for I am tired, and I would sleep.”

That line in particular just really sticks out to me. It's not just ill suited to common folk but it seems to be a completely different writing style than absolutely everything in the series.

[5A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 03:55:58 Edited: September 16 2017, 04:04:56
You're right that it sounds rather iambic-pentameter-esque. It's almost like he forgot he was trying to imitate J.R.R. Tolkien and Seamus Heaney and lapsed into Shakespeare for a sentence. Oh god, do you think he's one of those people who actually thinks Romeo and Juliet is a love story?

It's seriously off, though. I mean, if I try to put it in iambic pentameter, this is what I get:

"Come, kiss me sweet, and then let us return
To bed for I am tired and I would sleep."

Having emphasis on the word "then" just feels so wrong. I mean, it might sound better if it were...

"Come, kiss me sweet, and let's return to bed,
For I am tired and night is time for sleep."

It's still horribly awkward as dialogue, but it sounds better with the meter.

(Why do I know pentameter despite specializing in ancient poetry that use completely different metrical forms? Well... a combination of being a massive fan of the Scottish play and having attempted a spitefic of The Taming of the Shrew in full iambic pentameter.)

[5A1A]

Anonymous
September 16 2017, 06:40:14
What would you call Romeo and Juliet? A Romantic Tragedy perhaps? I've always considered that the love story part of it is essential to how badly everything goes to shit. Thoughts?

[5A1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 06:59:24 Edited: September 16 2017, 07:00:28
I'd call it a satire about how teenagers are stupid and family feuds are awful. Romeo pines over Rosaline until he sees Juliet, so it's pretty well established that he has a tendency for overblown infatuations, and since Rosaline is Juliet's cousin it could be argued that he fetishizes Capulet girls as "forbidden fruit." Juliet is established as being thirteen years old (almost fourteen) and not thinking about marriage, so it's quite likely that Romeo is her first crush; thus, inexperienced and completely blindsided as she is, she's likely to overblow it and rush into things thinking that it's the Greatest Love Ever. They need help from multiple coconspirators to make a halfway-decent plan, and once it's in motion they immediately fuck it up. Plus, the opening scene of the play is two Capulet footmen cheerily discussing how they're going to sexually assault the Montague women, much more the opening of a raunchy comedy than a romantic tragedy. If you look closely, Romeo and Juliet is one of Shakespeare's dirtiest plays.

[5A1A1A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 09:08:25
I agree, it has more in common with a satirical black comedy than a romance.

[5A1A1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 09:18:51
Juliet's nurse is a veritable fountain of filthy, filthy sex jokes.

[5A1A1B]

thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 23:11:19
I've heard a theory that the reason the play opens with someone basically spoiling the entire thing was because contemporary audience would have been massively confused with a romantic comedy turned tragedy half way through.

[5A2]

anontu
September 16 2017, 18:33:37
It's Paolini's "imitate and draw inspiration from ye olde fantasy epics" style, which is clearly a hit and miss with people.

[5B]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 09:06:04
"I mean, you just know he's the kind of author who would call Roran's penis his "manhood," like, all the time."

Hey, that's not fair. Paolini would mix it up with "his hardness", "his length", "his tumescence" and possibly even "the steely rod of his lust".

[5B1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 09:15:29
PFFFFT! "Tumescence," sweet Aphrodite that's hilarious. And yeah, I suppose he would... though I do think "manhood" would be the default.

[5B1A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 09:34:32
I wrote a sentence of Terrible Erotica once, as a mockery of a terrible romance story someone found.

Slowly, sensuously, he inserted his man-meat past my squishy bits, moaning throatily as he gently kneaded my funbags. Breathlessly, I reached down and caressed his dangling giggleberries. “Oh yes”, I whispered lustily. “We are having an sex.”

And I still think it's better than anything Paolini could write.

[5B1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 09:44:29
My. God.

*descends into hysterical muffled laughter*

Man-meat. Funbags. Giggleberries. That's not Terrible Erotica, it's good parody.

[5B1A1A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 09:47:06
Nobel Prize for Literature, here I cum come!

[5B1A1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 09:52:59
I just... friggin' giggleberries, man. Giggle. Berries. And how does she "reach down and caress" them while he's playing with her "funbags"? You'd think his... everything would be in the way.

Incidentally, "man-meat" is one of the best white cards in Cards Against Humanity.

[5B1A1A1A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 09:56:23
Please, Terrible Erotica doesn't keep track of people's locations and positions relative to each other; characters are sets of erogenous zones floating in space.

[5B1A1A1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 09:59:58
Which is made even more bizarre by the fact that in Terrible Erotica, anything can be an erogenous zone, especially the identifying features of non-human characters. Elf ears? Erogenous. Angel wings? Very erogenous. Demon tails? More erogenous than the goddamn genitals.

[5B1A1A1A1A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 10:10:08
To be fair, a sensual eartip massage can be extremely erotic. Have you ever tried it? Especially if it's given by someone you already have a loving intimate relationship with.

That's the funny thing about humans, we can get erogenous zones pretty much anywhere. armpits, knees, thumb knuckles, the nape or base of the neck, the base of the spine, the iliotibial tract (where quadrucep and hamstring muscles meet), the top of the elbow ('funny bone' nerve cluster), the ucipical mapillary (suprasternal notch where the collar bones meet at the base of the throat)...

A good writer can make any of these places just as erotic and sensual as genitals and secondary erogenous zones, just as they are in real life. A bad writer can make them feel awkward and uncomfortable and why would anyone do that?

[5B1A1A1A1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 10:18:34 Edited: September 16 2017, 10:18:43
I'm rather inexperienced in such matters. I just paid enough attention in sex-ed and biology to go "WTF, that would not work" when fictional characters perform an anatomically impossible sex act.

Alternate theory: characters in bad erotica all have the superpowers of Mr. Fantastic. This also explains how the heroines can regularly take "man-meat" at least twice the size of their "squishy bits."

[5B1A2]

anontu
September 16 2017, 18:34:32
That's wonderful. Your calling is in erotica methinks.

[5B1A3]

thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 23:12:29
Squishy bits gives me the uncomfortable impression that this character isn't of legal consenting age.

[5B1A3A]

torylltales
September 16 2017, 23:21:33
You've never met anyone between the ages of 20 and 28, have you?

[5B1A3A1]

thegharialguy
September 17 2017, 12:41:54
Well never had sex with one at any rate.

[5C]

theepistler
September 16 2017, 10:46:52 Edited: September 16 2017, 10:47:46
Oh yeah, the prose. And the dialogue. NOBODY TALKS LIKE THIS!

Also, personal pet peeve - I wish Paolini would stop using the word "cot". I know it's a perfectly cromulent word for a fold-out bed, but every single time he uses it I instantly picture a baby's crib and it pulls me right out of the story.

Other than that, the attempts at romantic dialogue here are just plain painful. How can anyone possibly connect with these two when they sound so stiff and unnatural? What's wrong with having your characters just talk like people anyway? It doesn't magically turn the book into some sort of High Art. Isn't this supposed to be a fantasy adventure story for tweens? Does Paolini even know any more, or does he just throw out whatever he thinks will sound cool?

Okay, I think I just answered my own question there.

“Come, kiss me sweet, and then let us return to bed, for I am tired, and I would sleep.”

No. Just no. Nobody talks like this. Roran has never talked like this. Also the fact that he's basically saying "just shut up and kiss me" makes him sound like a real jerk. She confides that she's feeling traumatised and he basically just shrugs it off with "eh, don't think about it. I'm going back to bed now. Peace out". Contrast this with how she comforts him when HE talks about HIS problems. This is the sort of subtle thing which pops up from time to time and paints Roran as a selfish asshole who doesn't actually care all that much about his supposed One True Love.

[5C1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 11:02:31
Also, personal pet peeve - I wish Paolini would stop using the word "cot". I know it's a perfectly cromulent word for a fold-out bed, but every single time he uses it I instantly picture a baby's crib and it pulls me right out of the story.

That's actually a localization issue. I'd never heard of a baby's crib being called a "cot," so I looked it up, and sure enough, dictionary.com says that it only means "a child's crib" in British English.

How can anyone possibly connect with these two when they sound so stiff and unnatural? What's wrong with having your characters just talk like people anyway?

My thoughts exactly. This is probably why I've slipped into anachronism in my spitefic; I may be trying a little too hard to make the original characters sound normal.

Roran has never talked like this. Also the fact that he's basically saying "just shut up and kiss me" makes him sound like a real jerk. She confides that she's feeling traumatised and he basically just shrugs it off with "eh, don't think about it. I'm going back to bed now. Peace out".

TRUTH. Roran really is an asshole.

Contrast this with how she comforts him when HE talks about HIS problems. This is the sort of subtle thing which pops up from time to time and paints Roran as a selfish asshole who doesn't actually care all that much about his supposed One True Love.

Indeed... you know, I think this might become fodder for a part of my spitefic.

[5C1A]

theepistler
September 16 2017, 16:32:54
Yeah, it's a cultural thing. I had a lot of British influence in my upbringing and mostly watched British TV shows as a child, so that's where I got the notion that "cot" means "baby's crib". Plus both my parents called it that. In fact they never used "crib" - it was always "cot". I've seen it used to refer to a camping bed for an adult maybe twice, and the other time was in Silence of the Lambs, of all things (a guard tells Hannibal Lecter that if he behaves himself he'll get "three hots and a cot").

TRUTH. Roran really is an asshole.

See, this is why I keep referring to him as a misogynist and abusive. This and other little things all add up to paint a picture of a guy who thinks of women as his inferiors. He unloads on Katrina all the time but doesn't bother to ask her how she's doing, and pretty much acts like he thinks he's the boss of her. The fact that she's apparently okay with it doesn't make it any better. Of course this isn't even getting into a certain incident later on when he violently assaults and threatens a teenage girl with something that reads very much like a watered-down rape threat, while implying that a woman's purpose in life is to look pretty and get married.

I mean really. The worst thing that could happen to a woman, in Roran's mind anyway, is becoming UGLY and being unable to attract a handsome husband! Fuck you, Roran. Ten bucks says if Katrina's teeth were broken by some asshole with a hammer he'd divorce her on the spot.

[5C1A1]

snarkbotanya
September 16 2017, 17:25:40
I agree; Roran's actions absolutely come across as misogynistic and abusive. He thinks of women in terms of their marriage prospects, doesn't really seem to like much about Katrina besides "she's pretty," never really has a conversation with her and overrules her decisions, and even his "romantic" moments with her are seriously questionable—remember that scene Swankivy pointed out where his flirtatious dialogue sounded really rapey?

The worst part of it is that if you look through the texts, you can kind of see where he gets it from. Remember your comment on one of the threads on your I Hate Brom post, where you wondered why Eragon thinks Brom was "like a father to him" despite not acting in any way fatherly? I kind of mentioned that it makes you wonder what Garrow was like as a parental figure. Well, let's examine what we know about Garrow: he never told Eragon that he and Marian weren't his biological parents (Marian did, on her deathbed), he packed up the boys and went to the outskirts of town after she died, and he didn't want either of them to leave the farm. He doesn't like the interference of the neighbors, and despite knowing how to read and write, he never taught his son or nephew. Look at all of that in light of Eragon and Roran's misogynistic behavior, and it becomes terrifyingly likely that Garrow was abusive too.

This realization was the root of some of Sloan's dialogue in my spitefic: "I couldn't let him take her, trap her in his house like his father did to his mother, like he did to those boys after she died." Because really, if you look at Sloan's behavior with "Garrow was abusive" in mind, it kind of explains all that hatred for Eragon and his family: he didn't like what Garrow did to Marian, and wanted his daughter to stay the fuck away from those boys.

I have a similar amount of faith (read: none) in the ability of Roran's love to withstand changes in Katrina's appearance. One of the things I kind of want to do in my spitefic is show them becoming estranged because having children is starting to take a toll on Katrina and Roran is being a jackass about it. I'm not sure where I could actually insert it, though; it might have to be an interlude or something.

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theepistler
September 16 2017, 23:01:19 Edited: September 16 2017, 23:02:20
This is depressingly plausible. :(

And you're right - Garrow was a nasty bastard too. He kept his kids isolated from everyone else (ever notice how Eragon has zero childhood friends, and nor does Roran?), deliberately kept them uneducated, and apparently never taught either of them to treat women with respect. Hell, he even looks creepy - remember how he was described as looking "partially mummified" (they have mummies in Arlgebarg?). And when he first sees Saphira's egg he reacts with instant covetous greed. I also have no recollection of him ever behaving in a loving manner toward either of his two brats.

I'm willing to lay money Garrow was unconsciously based on KPao.

Why does Roran like Katrina anyway? What precisely do they have in common? What does he see in her other than a pretty face? All we really get is the bit where he tells Eragon he'd always been "partial to her" and then one day he saw her smile and decided he liked it.

Perhaps more pertinently, why does Katrina like him back? What precisely about this asshole is so wonderful that she's prepared to throw away her entire future and disobey her father just to be with him? And she had premarital sex with him, which is apparently a big no-no in Arglebargle. You'd have to be pretty madly in love with someone - or particularly stupid - to essentially elope with some loser with no home, no money and no prospects.

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snarkbotanya
September 17 2017, 03:50:18 Edited: September 17 2017, 03:51:14
He... hugged Roran and spouted some platitudes that one time? I dunno. Garrow never came across as anything but a "GIT OFF MAH LAWN" type.

As for why Roran and Katrina like each other... well, let's look back at what I said about Romeo and Juliet. Roran likes her because she's pretty and returns his affections enough to keep him interested, and Katrina likes him because her father's distaste for him has created the allure of Forbidden Romance. When it comes to the premarital sex and rushing into marriage, I'd be willing to bet it was Glad To Be Alive Sex plus rushing into marriage because the war and then the pregnancy put a time limit on it. The statistics on such marriages lasting in the real world, by the way, are not good.

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theepistler
September 17 2017, 12:08:46 Edited: September 17 2017, 12:09:56
Oh lawdy, Garrow's "sage advice" made me cringe, and especially when he used terms like "unfettered". It was so out of character, out of place and silly. And he never acts as if he particularly cares about Eragon, period.

Maybe that's why Eragon got over his horrible death as quickly as he did. After Eldest the guy is basically never mentioned again.

...Katrina likes him because her father's distaste for him has created the allure of Forbidden Romance. When it comes to the premarital sex and rushing into marriage, I'd be willing to bet it was Glad To Be Alive Sex plus rushing into marriage because the war and then the pregnancy put a time limit on it. The statistics on such marriages lasting in the real world, by the way, are not good.

That makes sense. How old is Katrina, anyway? Is it ever stated in canon? I'm betting she's a teenager, and younger than Roran. Which just adds an extra layer of creepiness.

As it happens I wrote a rather similar "romance". A teenage girl who hates her parents - particularly her scumbag dad - becomes fascinated by a guy who's wildly unsuitable for her; he's twenty years older than her, plus he's emotionally unstable, has a criminal record and uses drugs. But she's fascinated by him and finds him super sexy because he's a "bad boy" and forbidden love is highly alluring to an immature girl like her. Predictably, he knocks her up and then marries her because she wants to keep the baby and he's fool enough to think getting married will somehow fix the situation.

Two short years later they're both completely miserable and mutually abusive toward each other, the kid is neglected and traumatised by the constant screaming matches, and it ends in an ugly divorce to the surprise of absolutely no-one.

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snarkbotanya
September 17 2017, 12:55:54
Katrina is described as "a tall girl of sixteen" when she first appears in Eragon. In the next chapter, Roran is said to be two years older than Eragon, who is fifteen; so depending on when exactly Roran's birthday is, he could be anywhere from almost-seventeen to eighteen. Personally, I registered him as being either eighteen or almost there. So the age difference between Roran and Katrina isn't quite to the "good god that's creepy" point, but at their age the gap in life experience is still noticeable.

Thank goodness that couple was able to get divorced. There's no indication that divorce is a thing in Alagoober, which makes Katrina's situation rather awful.

In my eyes, the most likely future for Roran and Katrina is rampant, horrifying spousal abuse. Becoming an Earl without knowing anything about how to govern is going to take a toll on Roran's already-questionable stability, and Katrina's probably going to bear the brunt of that. Since his treatment of women correlates directly to their looks, this is going to get worse as the years go on, especially if they have more kids. Pregnancy can really fuck up a lady's body, and the stress of running the household won't help.

Basically, I guarantee that in a few years Roran will be a tyrant politically and at home and Katrina will be going prematurely gray.

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theepistler
September 17 2017, 18:43:16 Edited: September 17 2017, 18:48:02
Urgh, so on top of everything else Roran knocked up, married and subsequently subtly abuses a sixteen year old girl. And I thought the series couldn't possibly get any more distasteful.

Yes I know you could pull the "it's a different time" card, but it's still really off-putting, and especially given that their relationship is supposed to be based on Twu Wuv rather than political/social expediency.
And apparently Roran not only becomes a super soldier right the fuck out of nowhere, but he also does it when he's EIGHTEEN YEARS OLD. I mean, good fuck that's stupid. How is he such a brilliant orator/general when he's got no life experience anyway? Mind you, Nasuada is apparently eighteen as well and leading the entire fucking rebellion. I've heard of teenage wish fulfillment, but come on.

Thank goodness that couple was able to get divorced. There's no indication that divorce is a thing in Alagoober, which makes Katrina's situation rather awful.

The guy's son eventually reconnects with him as a teenager, and he finds out the kid hates his guts for never being there, something not helped by the fact that the resentful mother threw all the letters he sent in the bin and wouldn't let him come to the phone, all without the kid's knowledge. She also wouldn't let him visit and threatened to call the cops when he tried.

This is something I've seen in real life on many, many occasions - I used to work with children and personally witnessed the fallout from several nasty divorces, at least two of which happened because one of the parents was abusive or using drugs. People in these situations use the kids as weapons to hurt the other person. One mother who physically abused her son tried to pin the whole thing on her husband and ended up dragging his name through the mud during the subsequent court battle. Another mother told me she was changing her kid's school, and when I mentioned it to the estranged father he growled "well it's the first I've heard about it"

And most tragically of all, as we both know some estranged parents go so far as to murder the kids to "teach him/her a lesson".

In Ye Olden Days, some disgruntled wives - notably Eleanor of Aquitaine - secretly poisoned their sons against their fathers. Eleanor did it so well that her four sons, including the future Richard the Lionheart, turned on their father the King and ultimately defeated him. The stories say he died of a broken heart not long afterward.

I mention all this because I think it's something worth considering for your spitefic. What if Katrina used her kids to get back at Roran?

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snarkbotanya
September 17 2017, 19:29:22
Urgh, so on top of everything else Roran knocked up, married and subsequently subtly abuses a sixteen year old girl.

She may have been seventeen when she got pregnant... but yeah, even with their age difference only being a couple years and the age of majority in Alagarbage being sixteen, it's horrible.

Nasuada is apparently eighteen as well and leading the entire fucking rebellion. I've heard of teenage wish fulfillment, but come on.

Indeed. Nasuada's age also makes that random "oh, I regret never having children" bit in Inheritance even more jarring, because even in a medieval world, how many eighteen-year-old girls are going to regret not being a mother?

This is something I've seen in real life on many, many occasions - I used to work with children and personally witnessed the fallout from several nasty divorces, at least two of which happened because one of the parents was abusive or using drugs.

Sweet Hestia at the hearth, that's awful. Makes me even more thankful that my parents were mature, responsible adults about getting divorced: shared custody, agreement not to badmouth each other to me, etc. It may have been tough going through that as a five-yearold, but they really did everything they could to make it as not-completely-terrible as possible.

I love my parents; they're great people.

In Ye Olden Days, some disgruntled wives - notably Eleanor of Aquitaine - secretly poisoned their sons against their fathers... I mention all this because I think it's something worth considering for your spitefic. What if Katrina used her kids to get back at Roran?

I really like this. I've had a few ideas knocking around in my skull about this, and the idea of having Katrina subtly influencing her children to go against their father seems fun. One of my other ideas is that Katrina might argue in favor of naming one of their sons after her father; after all, she still thinks that he died in Helgrind.

On an kind of random note, do you read Katrina's name as [kətɹinə] or [kætɹɪnə]?

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theepistler
September 18 2017, 17:55:54
No wonder Katrina is such a romance-driven, naive idiot - she's literally just a kid. At least Sansa Stark paid a hefty price for being fool enough to believe in True Love and swooning over a nasty, violent little jerk (and hey, the jerk Sansa idealised was horrible to her father too! Don't you just love hilariously appropriate parallels in fiction?).

I really like this. I've had a few ideas knocking around in my skull about this, and the idea of having Katrina subtly influencing her children to go against their father seems fun. One of my other ideas is that Katrina might argue in favor of naming one of their sons after her father; after all, she still thinks that he died in Helgrind.

Ooh, me like! And I could see her doing that, too. Well, if she actually cared about her poor hard-done-by dad. Maybe later on she has regrets when she realises how much he sacrificed for her, and understands how unfair she was to him.

On an kind of random note, do you read Katrina's name as [kətɹinə] or [kætɹɪnə]?

Unfortunately I never learned what those weird upside-down letters mean, but I pronounce it "kat-reen-a" with the emphasis on the "treen".

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snarkbotanya
September 18 2017, 18:26:32
Don't you just love hilariously appropriate parallels in fiction?

I do... I really, really do. Heck, Sansa and Katrina even look sort of alike; Sansa's got auburn hair and Katrina's a redhead. They also both look like their moms (explicitly in Sansa's case, having the "Tully look" and all; more implied in Katrina's case, since the descriptions of her and Sloan sound nothing alike).

Maybe later on she has regrets when she realises how much he sacrificed for her, and understands how unfair she was to him.

This is definitely something I've been toying around with. I think becoming a parent herself might give her some perspective on her father's motivations and lead her to regret her behavior towards him. Since this would probably be happening around the same time that Roran starts escalating his abuse, it could easily help her break out of her infatuation—after all, if her father was right to be protective, maybe he was right about Roran too, and having his behavior get worse while she's starting to have these thoughts could make them more palatable. Of course, it could also go the other way, turning into a sunk-costs fallacy where Katrina rationalizes that her relationship with Roran has to be good because, well, she can't bear to think that she was such a brat to her father for someone who wasn't worth it. Heck, it could even be both: realizing that Roran is horrible, but suppressing that realization because the truth hurts.

Unfortunately I never learned what those weird upside-down letters mean, but I pronounce it "kat-reen-a" with the emphasis on the "treen".

That would be [kətɹinə], then. I'm not exactly fluent in IPA either, but I've been teaching myself since I started conlanging. [ə] is a schwa, that "uh" sound on a non-emphasized A, like the first syllable of "about." [ɹ] is the non-rolled English R (an approximant); IPA's [r] is rolled (a trill). [ɪ] is like the I in, well, "in," while [i] is that "ee" sound. [æ] is like the A in "cat." So [kətɹinə] would be "ka-TREE-na," while [kætɹɪnə] would be "KAT-rih-na."

As for how I pronounce it, I kind of go back and forth. I have a cousin named Katrina, pronounced [kətɹinə], and sometimes want to differentiate the character from her by pronouncing it [kætɹɪnə].

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theepistler
September 18 2017, 19:28:35
I do... I really, really do. Heck, Sansa and Katrina even look sort of alike; Sansa's got auburn hair and Katrina's a redhead. They also both look like their moms (explicitly in Sansa's case, having the "Tully look" and all; more implied in Katrina's case, since the descriptions of her and Sloan sound nothing alike).

Okay, now it's getting creepy. o.0

[story ideas]

Hells and yes! It makes sense in particular because a lot of people are unwilling to leave bad relationships because if there's one thing nobody can bear, it's admitting to having been wrong about something, and especially when it's something that major. My teenage character who hooks up with a guy who's bad news is told by everybody she knows that she's making a mistake. First they urge her to break up with him and get away before she gets hurt. She loudly retorts "no! I love him!". Then when she gets pregnant, they tell her again to break up with him, and get an abortion right away. But no, she insists that she wants to keep the baby because she's caught up in romantic notions of One True Love and thinks bringing a baby into the equation will make it all perfect and complete. Because that's what you're told when you're young. First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes a baby in a baby carriage, and there's nothing more to it than that.

She subsequently finds out that motherhood is exhausting, and daily domestic life with a constantly dirty house and a surly husband actually really sucks and isn't beautiful or romantic in the slightest. On top of that she realises she's pretty much thrown her future away by never finishing school or going to university, and now has to rely on her husband to pay for everything, which causes resentment on both sides. So she starts trying to get back at him in a million petty, passive-aggressive ways, in order to punish him for ruining her life.

Thing is, the circumstances under which this couple and Roran/Katrina get together are kind of similar. Both girls get together with a guy because he's a forbidden "bad boy", both of them during perilous and exciting circumstances. My character's husband is a professional tough guy who risks his life to save hers, after which she falls for him. Roran is a(n alleged) dashing rebel who risks his neck to save Katrina from the Ra'zac, and people sing songs all about their Epic Romance.

But thing is... what happens after that? Sooner or later the dangerous times pass, and then what? Turns out my bad boy isn't really that exciting to be around when he's not kicking ass; mostly he just slobs around, watching TV, getting high and fussing over his hobbies, and where's the sexy thrill in that?

What on earth is Roran going to do now he's done bashing in skulls? He's got to use all that aggressive energy for something. It's well-known that people who've lived through major wars have trouble settling back into normal life, and I really can't see Roran easily adjusting to civilian life, let alone dealing well with randomly becoming a member of the nobility despite having zero experience or qualifications. I'm betting he'll find his little Earldom is a lot more than he bargained for. And I really doubt he'll be able to handle the stress. We already know he's in the habit of blowing up at people if they displease him, and particularly when he's tired or strained. What's he going to do when he's suddenly surrounded by underlings asking him to deal with all sorts of little crises on a daily basis? Not well, I'll wager.

Of course this isn't even getting into the fact that it's absolute nonsense that Roran would have accepted an Earldom in the first place, or that Nasuada would have offered him one to begin with.

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snarkbotanya
September 19 2017, 05:30:07
if there's one thing nobody can bear, it's admitting to having been wrong about something, and especially when it's something that major

There's an excellent video on YouTube by an atheist psychologist known as TheraminTrees about how the sunk costs fallacy leads people to join and stay with manipulative groups such as cults. It's a great watch (as are pretty much all of his videos; he's probably the calmest, most logical atheist YouTuber in existence) and really helped me understand why people don't just GTFO of abusive situations.

[your character's situation]

Ouch. Buying into Babies Make Everything Better rarely, if ever, ends well. Unfortunately, few teens are really capable of doing the soul-searching to know whether they would be good parents, so... yeah. (I know I could never be a parent. I don't deal well with noise and desperately need personal space and alone time, and if I had to get rid of a pet for the sake of a child with allergies, it would psychologically ruin me.)

What on earth is Roran going to do now he's done bashing in skulls? He's got to use all that aggressive energy for something. It's well-known that people who've lived through major wars have trouble settling back into normal life, and I really can't see Roran easily adjusting to civilian life, let alone dealing well with randomly becoming a member of the nobility despite having zero experience or qualifications.

Had he been allowed to go back to true civilian life, I have the feeling he would go back to farming in Carvahall, but find it kind of hollow. Maybe he'd end up joining the army permanently and then take his frustrations out on recruits. With the Earldom, though... *shudders*

We already know he's in the habit of blowing up at people if they displease him, and particularly when he's tired or strained. What's he going to do when he's suddenly surrounded by underlings asking him to deal with all sorts of little crises on a daily basis? Not well, I'll wager.

This. Exactly this. The first thing on his list of duties seems to be rebuilding Carvahall and putting in his manor house/castle, probably where Garrow's farm used to be. That is not going to be easy, and since Roran's only experience in the world comes from farming and fighting, I doubt it'll be pretty. There will definitely be resentment between the new Earl and the workers. Being prevented from going back to the commoner life might also lead Roran to romanticize it, which would make him even more resentful. Roran is just not suited for a position of leadership, especially a peacetime one.

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theepistler
September 19 2017, 08:54:19 Edited: September 19 2017, 09:02:09
Ouch. Buying into Babies Make Everything Better rarely, if ever, ends well.

The inherent problem with it is that, at bottom, it's a very selfish sort of attitude to have because it essentially reduces the child to an accessory rather than a human being with needs. "If I have a baby that will make it all better" means you're just thinking about yourself and YOUR needs, when what you should really be thinking "would I be a suitable parent?" and "can I provide for the child and give him/her a good upbringing?" My character's kid suffers for his parents' bad choices - not only does he grow up in a broken home with an absentee father, but he has to put up with the baggage of being the product of a teen pregnancy (other kids bully him about it all the time, calling his mother a "slut", etc.). And to cap it off his mother saddles him with a name her immature teen self thought would be cool and unusual, so he gets picked on for having a weird name too. Don't even get me started on those dumbasses who seriously think it's a good idea to give their kids "exotic" names. We had one kid in my area whose name was "Khandalyce" (no I'm not kidding. Talk about the Bogan name to end all Bogan names).

I'm betting Roran and Katrina are going to be pretty crappy parents. They didn't even have the goddamn common sense to find a safe place for Katrina to live out the war during her pregnancy. Does Paolini have no idea how SICK pregnancy can make a woman, and how much stress it places on her both mentally and physically? That aside, we've all seen how cruel and abusive Roran is toward young girls, haven't we? Shit, he kills a little girl in the last book and feels absolutely no remorse for it. I'd just love to see him deal with a rebellious daughter. And by that I mean I'm absolutely horrified by the idea because I literally cannot picture him using anything other than violence and threats to bring her to heel. Because violence and threats are how he deals with literally everything, including disagreements with his wife. Remember when he threatened to tie her up? And later on physically restrained her against her will while she screamed in protest? Not so much as an attempt at negotiation; his first response was to use force. This is not how a loving family man behaves.

You're right about him being a horrible choice for a leadership position too. Fuck the stupid speechifying - he sucks at leading people. He needlessly antagonises his allies and superiors, refuses to negotiate, doesn't listen to advice, is terrible at following orders, and treats his underlings with complete contempt. Literally the only reason why people follow and admire him is because the author says they do. If he wasn't a Sue he'd be one of the most resented and generally disliked captains in the Varden. The unearned special privileges and needless brutality in warfare would definitely be a factor as well.

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snarkbotanya
September 19 2017, 09:22:18
"If I have a baby that will make it all better" means you're just thinking about yourself and YOUR needs, when what you should really be thinking "would I be a suitable parent?" and "can I provide for the child and give him/her a good upbringing?"

Exactly. It's kind of ironic that in taking a firm childfree position, I'm thinking more about the needs of my hypothetical children than a great many wannabe-parents. Among all the "I need alone time" and "I couldn't give up my pets," the biggest reason I have for not wanting children is, "I would probably be a shitty parent and I don't want to inflict that on an innocent kid."

Don't even get me started on those dumbasses who seriously think it's a good idea to give their kids "exotic" names. We had one kid in my area whose name was "Khandalyce" (no I'm not kidding. Talk about the Bogan name to end all Bogan names).

Is that some kind of mutant hybrid of Candace and Alice? Whatever it is, it is truly WTF. Though I'd still say it's marginally better than Renesmee.

I'm betting Roran and Katrina are going to be pretty crappy parents.

Indeed. The best case scenario is that they use their new position to get wet nurses, tutors, and governesses to do the childcare for them. Worst case scenario... I'd rather not think about the worst case scenario. When the best case scenario is foisting the kids off on someone else, things are bad.

Does Paolini have no idea how SICK pregnancy can make a woman, and how much stress it places on her both mentally and physically?

Considering how little he knows about women in general, I doubt he knows the first thing about pregnancy. He clearly doesn't know how long it takes for it to show, considering how fast Katrina starts developing a baby bump. You could argue that it'd be more apparent on her because she's "slender," but she's also described as tall, and I think it's less apparent on tall women.

Sidenote: the mere concept of pregnancy scares the living shit out of me.

If he wasn't a Sue he'd be one of the most resented disliked captains in the Varden.

My personal headcanon is that he is, but everyone else is scared shitless of the guy, so they pretend he's not a horrible human being.

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theepistler
September 19 2017, 17:39:28
Exactly. It's kind of ironic that in taking a firm childfree position, I'm thinking more about the needs of my hypothetical children than a great many wannabe-parents.

That's because you're not a selfish bastard, which Roran and Katrina both are. I know I'm not suited for motherhood too, and it's not because I'm an asexual (asexuals can after all adopt if they want to). It's because I just don't have the temperament for it. I'm too solitary, too short on patience, and quite frankly, too short on space. I wouldn't want a child to be saddled with me as their mother.

Sadly the reason I know about Khandalyce is because I saw her on the news after she and her mother were murdered by mum's scumbag ex boyfriend with an axe. Because that's how some guys react when a woman rejects them. I wonder what Roran would do if Katrina kicked him out and demanded a divorce? Poorly, I would think.


My personal headcanon is that he is, but everyone else is scared shitless of the guy, so they pretend he's not a horrible human being.

Plus he's a Cousin of a Dragon Rider (tm) and you REALLY don't want Eragon annoyed at you. I bet they all know about the hideously cruel things Eragon does to his victims and how he's basically invincible and with godlike powers at his command. Best keep him happy or who knows what he'll take it into his head to do to you? They say Sloan Aldensson crossed him and was never seen again.

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snarkbotanya
September 19 2017, 19:00:57 Edited: September 19 2017, 19:01:55
Sadly the reason I know about Khandalyce is because I saw her on the news after she and her mother were murdered by mum's scumbag ex boyfriend with an axe.

Holy god. Poor kid... I hope that psycho is rotting in prison.

I wonder what Roran would do if Katrina kicked him out and demanded a divorce?

That's assuming divorce is even a thing in Alagarbage. If the Alagaësian system is like actual medieval England or Scandinavia, then it absolutely should be; Viking women could pretty much kick their husbands out of the house on a whim, and though it was hard for an English noblewoman to get divorced, peasant women could pretty easily just walk out. However, we don't really get much about how it works in Alagrumble.

Assuming it's similar to the medieval English system, Katrina's best out as a newly-minted member of the aristocracy is to argue that the marriage was invalid. The best argument she could probably think to make now is that Eragon was not a qualified officiant; however, that's incredibly risky because it insults Roran's family and risks angering the guy with the motherfucking dragon. If she found out that her father was still alive, she could possibly go the route of calling her marriage improper because it was against his will. This could also be hard to make fly, though, because being made an Earl pretty much gives Roran higher legal authority than Sloan. Plus, that's not even going into the horrid things Roran would do to her behind closed doors. Her best bet is probably to grab the kids and run, legality be damned.

Plus he's a Cousin of a Dragon Rider (tm) and you REALLY don't want Eragon annoyed at you. I bet they all know about the hideously cruel things Eragon does to his victims and how he's basically invincible and with godlike powers at his command. Best keep him happy or who knows what he'll take it into his head to do to you? They say Sloan Aldensson crossed him and was never seen again.

Indeed. Kind of makes you wonder how many of the cheering people in Chapter One of my spitefic were there because they were actually Varden supporters and how many were there because they're afraid that Nasuada will call Eragon in to mind-rape them.

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theepistler
September 19 2017, 20:26:01 Edited: September 19 2017, 20:26:45
I hope that psycho is rotting in prison.

Yeah, they got him. Thank gods.


Indeed. Kind of makes you wonder how many of the cheering people in Chapter One of my spitefic were there because they were actually Varden supporters and how many were there because they're afraid that Nasuada will call Eragon in to mind-rape them.

Maybe that's why the Varden cheered when they saw him in the first book even though they had no way to know whose side he was on and he'd done absolutely nothing to help them (or even anything the least bit heroic) - they were just playing it safe because they knew what Riders do to people who displease them.

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snarkbotanya
September 20 2017, 04:49:42
Yeah, they got him. Thank gods.

Good. I hope he stays there for the rest of his miserable life. People who kill little kids deserve no sympathy.

Maybe that's why the Varden cheered when they saw him in the first book even though they had no way to know whose side he was on and he'd done absolutely nothing to help them (or even anything the least bit heroic) - they were just playing it safe because they knew what Riders do to people who displease them.

I'd say it was probably a combination of this and the fact that Riders are seriously idolized in all the in-universe stories about them.

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theepistler
September 20 2017, 09:59:49
Trust me that guy is never going to see the light of day again. If they so much as considered letting him out on parole there'd be a public outrage. It's times like these I almost wish we still had the death penalty around here - time was when he would have been promptly hanged.

I'd say it was probably a combination of this and the fact that Riders are seriously idolized in all the in-universe stories about them.

You forgot the part where these guys are being (allegedly) ruthlessly oppressed by a Rider.

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snarkbotanya
September 20 2017, 10:11:49
True... perhaps people's continued idolization of Riders is more evidence that Galby really isn't all that bad.

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theepistler
September 20 2017, 10:37:09

[Caption: Fry from Futurama narrowing his eyes]

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snarkbotanya
September 20 2017, 11:01:31
Christopher Paolini: telling one thing and showing the opposite. Just like Stephenie Meyer.

The issue of Galbatorix is still something I'm figuring out how to deal with in the spitefic. He really just isn't a coherent character, just a bunch of Villain Traits stapled onto a Tragic Backstory. I'm probably going to end up portraying both him and Eragon as well-meaning people who went too far, but it's... tricky.

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theepistler
September 20 2017, 19:28:31
Was Eragon ever really "well-meaning", though? He has absolutely no plans for how to make Arglefart a better place - his goal is some vaguely defined notion of committing regicide and that's pretty much it. In fact after Galbatorix is mindraped into committing suicide (yes, I'm still angry about that), Eragon's reaction is to sit around feeling useless. No "I must go and use my superpowers to rebuild the country!" or anything like that. Instead he whines about how he doesn't know what to do with himself any more, because he clearly never thought any further than "Galbatorix bad! Raah!"

I really wish Paolini had bothered to explain how exactly killing Galbatorix had anything to do with Freedom For The People, and why not doing so would have "doomed all of Alagaesia". Because he really never did. It's never explained how exactly Galbatorix poses a threat, and when he does explain his plan as all good
villains do, it's nothing particularly sinister or horrifying at all, to the point that Nasuada ends up enacting pretty much the exact same scheme. What precisely did getting rid of Galbatorix do to change matters in Arlgebarg other than causing thousands of needless deaths and destroying huge swathes of the countryside? Well that and replacing him with a blithering incompetent. I see no way this could possibly go wrong.

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snarkbotanya
September 21 2017, 06:21:03 Edited: September 21 2017, 06:21:24
Was Eragon ever really "well-meaning", though? He has absolutely no plans for how to make Arglefart a better place - his goal is some vaguely defined notion of committing regicide and that's pretty much it.

This is true. In fact, if you dig into personal motivations, the most you can really get is "revenge for deeds done by underlings." Paolini makes it worse for himself in Eldest when he has Oromis drop this bomb:

"Ah, but answer me this, my young Rider: Won't your war with Galbatorix cause more pain than it will ever prevent? The majority of people in the Empire live normal, productive lives untouched by their king's madness. How can you justify invading their land, destroying their homes, and killing their sons and daughters?"

This question totally blindsides Eragon; his initial reaction is to answer it with a question, basically asking Oromis to give him an answer he can parrot back. His eventual answer is essentially that Galbatorix's long life makes him more capable of causing suffering over extended periods of time, plus it means they can get the dragon eggs and thus "save the dragons" (never mind that a genetic bottleneck of two male dragons and one female is absolutely a lost cause). Oromis then hits him with the problem of the Urgals, and Eragon professes his full desire to commit genocide on them because "they wouldn't spare [humans], given the chance." Oromis, in
another rare moment of clarity, absolutely calls him on this, calling it "lazy, repugnant, and indicative of an inferior mind." Unfortunately, all of this is merely an obvious setup for the Urgals joining Team Varden later in the book, and it never really comes up again; in the next two books, Eragon has no problem committing genocide against the Ra'zac twice.

Of course, Oromis himself displays some shockingly horrible reasoning in that same passage, expressing satisfaction that Eragon "won't shrink from the path when [he is] confronted by the injustices and atrocities that the Varden will inevitably commit." If the side you're on is committing atrocities, Eragon, you should be shrinking from the path, or at least trying to get them to not commit atrocities. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, and two wrongs don't make a right.

This bizarre pain-calculus also indicates that Paolini is likely working with some form of utilitarianism. The problems with utilitarianism are many, but the biggest one for me is that it ignores the fact of human individuality and personal rights on a basic level. Moral questions are hard, and distilling everything down to a calculation of pleasure vs. pain is an oversimplification that could justify small-scale slavery (for the highly-increased pleasure of everyone else) as easily as it promotes charity (see: everything written by Peter Singer). Yes, a person who makes a sacrifice for the needs of the many is commendable; but does that mean that people should be required to make such a sacrifice? Would it be right to force them to do so? These are questions that just don't have easy answers.

Philosophizing aside, I think Eragon genuinely sees himself as the hero of his own story (like most people), but lacks the self-awareness to examine his own motivations and beliefs. Instead, he uses what little philosophical skill he has to justify the views he already holds.

Really, now that I write this out, it Is very difficult to gauge Eragon's intentions. On one hand, the fact that he needs to philosophize extensively to justify killing Galbatorix speaks to at least the bare minimum of a moral compass; on the other, the need to do so didn't arise from Eragon's mind, but from Oromis. The fact that Eragon's behavior and reactions are wildly inconsistent (horror at the dead baby in Yazuac vs. the entirety of Mercy Dragon Rider) only makes it harder. Perhaps my desire to write Eragon as well-meaning comes from some residual nostalgia, or perhaps it's my general tendency to want to believe that most people are good, but do bad things because of ignorance or mistaken ideas rather than malice.

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snarkbotanya
September 21 2017, 06:45:43
Edited: September 21 2017, 06:47:20
after Galbatorix is mindraped into committing suicide (yes, I'm still angry about that)

I am too. I'll be the first to admit that I've had petty revenge fantasies about forcing anti-LGBT and anti-feminist groups or individuals to experience the feeling of being oppressed, but I at least acknowledge that they are petty revenge fantasies, not some kind of amazing justice. The way to a better world is changing minds, not torturing the other side until they self-destruct. Sometimes my petty revenge fantasies make me worry for my mental health.

I really wish Paolini had bothered to explain how exactly killing Galbatorix had anything to do with Freedom For The People, and why not doing so would have "doomed all of Alagaesia". Because he really never did. It's never explained how exactly Galbatorix poses a threat, and when he does explain his plan as all good villains do, it's nothing particularly sinister or horrifying at all, to the point that Nasuada ends up enacting pretty much the exact same scheme. What precisely did getting rid of Galbatorix do to change matters in Arlgebarg other than causing thousands of needless deaths and destroying huge swathes of the countryside? Well that and replacing him with a blithering incompetent. I see no way this could possibly go wrong.

There seems to be some attempt, at least in the earlier books, to set up Galbatorix as a Chessmaster playing the Urgals and Varden against each other and painting both as horrible to his own people, so that whichever wins, he'll have the Empire's support in crushing the other. This could easily have been tied in to Galby's long-standing grudge against the Urgals for killing his dragon and the fact that once he lost half his army in the Spine (I wonder if he spent moths beating his head on
doors and yelling for the Spine to give him back his legions?*) apparently trying to wipe them out. Unfortunately, this is never really explored; it's mentioned a couple times in passing and then dropped like a hot potato, leaving us nothing to focus on but the question of why Galby is just sitting on his throne doing nothing. Then, when Galby actually gets onscreen, he never even mentions Jarnunvosk or the Urgals.

The Nasuada torture scenes could be considered evidence of villainy, but considering that Nasuada is in a situation that lends itself to altered mental states even without Galby's intervention, it would be ridiculously easy to just call Unreliable Narrator on most or all of it.

At the end of the Cycle, the Varden have killed vast numbers of civilians in their city sieges, created a massive refugee crisis**, and pretty much instigated a succession crisis that they had to spend even more time, money, and lives to (allegedly) put down. Considering how Nasuada basically tries to do almost the same thing, the only real difference between the Varden taking over and Galbatorix staying on the throne is that there was lots more death, relations with the jackass elves and boring dwarves are open again, and maybe there won't be any Urgal attacks for a while.

* Suetonius's Life of Augustus: "In fact, they say that he was so greatly affected that for several months in succession he cut neither his beard nor his hair, and sometimes he would dash his head against a door, crying: "Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!" (section 23)
** Jolanus, one of Vanora's fellow orphaned wards mentioned briefly in my spitefic, is a refugee from Dras-Leona who got lost on the road.

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anontu
September 16 2017, 18:43:01
As an Australian too I also get pulled out of the moment when an author uses the word cot. Then in a bit of a petty spiteful way I make cars in my stories drive on the left. Take that majority of the world who expects the steering wheel on the left!

As I've said before I'm half convinced the stiff unnatural dialogue is like that because he's mimicking a distant, ye olde fantasy epic style. In talks about the sci fi book Paolini has said how he was relieved to go back to a more natural dialogue style, or something along those lines.

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thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 23:15:02
I was going to bring up that exact same point about cot but I felt my word count was running a bit high for such a short chapter.

(also, not sure if you're trying to be ironic or not but you're not using Cromulent right).

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theepistler
September 16 2017, 23:24:16
...you're not using Cromulent right.

Cromulent

Adjective

cromulent (comparative more cromulent, superlative most cromulent)

(humorous) Fine, acceptable or correct; seamless, relevant, legitimate or authentic; the opposite of anomalous.

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thegharialguy
September 16 2017, 23:57:55 Edited: September 16 2017, 23:58:14
I don't know what dictionary you're using but if that's the modern useage of cromulent then that's a remarkably fast evolution of the word. The word comes from a 1996 episode of The Simpsons where Krababbel talks about how she never came across the word "Embiggen" before coming to Springfield only for the other teacher to say it's a perfectly cromulent word. The joke at that time being the fact that cromulent isn't a word. Since then it's come to mean a word that sound legitimate but is in fact not (just like embiggen).

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theepistler
September 17 2017, 00:05:13
I literally got that definition straight off of Wiktionary.

Believe it or not - and yes, I know this is ridiculous - both "embiggen" and "cromulent" were subsequently added to the dictionary and are now considered to be "real" words. I've heard that "meh" was also adopted into common usage from The Simpsons.

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thegharialguy
September 17 2017, 00:08:30
But they're using the in universe definition of how cromulent was used rather than the actual implications of the word >.< That's so pointless. Cromulent being a complete synonym for legitimate means it's useless as a word. It doesn't provide any extra use over the more common word. But to mean a word that sounds like a word but isn't is very useful. It's the distinction between "Kbje" and "Kovoke". A random string of letters vs a random string of letters that actually try to appear to have meaning.

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theepistler
September 17 2017, 00:12:20
Well I did say it was ridiculous. Honestly, I just used the word as a joke in the first place. :p

It's the distinction between "Kbje" and "Kovoke"

Is this from a language I'm not familiar with or...?

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thegharialguy
September 17 2017, 00:24:36
I meant Kbje doesn't look like it's a real word at all while Kovoke looks like it could be.

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theepistler
September 17 2017, 00:41:35
Ah, right.

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syntinen_laulu
September 19 2017, 19:58:55
and yes, I know this is ridiculous

Actually, no it's not. If people actually use a word, it is a real word, and dictionaries must list it, whatever its origin.

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theepistler
September 22 2017, 18:30:29 Edited: September 22 2017, 18:31:01
You're right. Language changes; that's what it does. If a word captures the zeitgeist and people start using it, it's legit no matter how silly the original source of the word was.
And if there isn't a word for something, someone will invent one. That's why we now have words like 'google', meaning 'to look something up online'.

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syntinen_laulu
September 19 2017, 19:55:59
I've read a lot of 18th-century/Napoleonic military/naval history, when a cot was what an officer on active service routinely slept in, so CP's use of the word as such (instead, presumably, of camp bed which he might quite reasonably have felt sounded too modern) doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that:

- two-person cots really didn't exist ever or anywhere, because their necessarily light construction - poles, canvas, cord, etc - wouldn't take the stress of a double width, let alone stand up to the weight of two people, even if those people didn't attempt to exercise their conjugal rights.

- if you sit on the edge of that kind of cot you will probably either tip it over or break it; and even if you don't you'll be damned uncomfortable with the wood or metal side support sticking into your backside.

Once again Paolini is either just not trying to envisage the physical reality of stuff in his fantasy world, or he has so little concept of any kind of life or environment other than his own that he just takes for granted that because double camp beds (in high-strength tubular steel and polyester) exist now, of course they must have existed in times past.

(Actually in times past beds did exist that would have fitted the bill. In medieval times royalty and nobility expected the comforts and elegance of home when they
travelled, and they had furniture, including beds, that was just as impressive as what they used at home but was made to be taken apart and packed on mules or carts.
And right up to the late 19th century rich senior officers went on active service with whole suites of 'campaign' furniture of this kind - mahogany dining tables to seat 12
with matching chairs, chests of drawers, desks, and yes, double beds. Here is one. And given that Nasuada has been treating Roran and Katrina as some kind of
royalty and lavishing prestigious luxuries on them, hey: why shouldn't she have given them a super-expensive bed that would take a couple of mules to carry? But you
could not call anything of that kind a 'cot'. )

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theepistler
September 19 2017, 20:40:19
I've used fold-out camp beds, and I can vouch for the fact that they're REALLY uncomfortable and just about impossible to sit on. It's the canvas in the middle that's supposed to take your weight, and it curves downward like a hammock, which makes it tricky to get out of to begin with. The frame, by contrast, is very much not designed to take your weight, plus as you say it's too light to sit on the edge without making the thing flip over (if there's two of you doing it simultaneously you can forget it). Either it's going to tip up and dump you right on the floor, or you'll fall backward thanks to the shape of the canvas and smack yourself on the head. Roran and Katrina's "cot" is written like it's a wood-frame double bed with a mattress. This just adds to the weird feeling that their supposedly very temporary quarters are actually a proper house with all the comforts (including a happy housewife to do the dishes and make cups of tea on demand).


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ssbob90
6 December 2019, 14:05
Where's the comments?

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epistler
6 December 2019, 14:28
Get this - I went through and re-formatted everything and re-inserted the pictures, and then DW told me the post was "too big" and I was forced to delete everything or it wouldn't load. I was so pissed.