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Jonathan Dean wrote in antishurtugal, 2017-04-25 15:38:00
MOOD:
ecstaticMUSIC: Alba CD1-4 - Music from the middle ages
Brisingr Spork, Part 21: Fire in the Sky Part 2
Previously, I examined the ground battle and why not only was it a mess, but also why Nasuada is an unfit leader for the Varden. Now I'm going to look at the aerial battle.
Nasuada having cleverly sent a small number of troops to spring a trap that she thought could overwhelm the camps' defences, it is now Eragon's turn to take center stage in the chapter. He knows that Murtagh and Thorn are likely here to capture him and Saphira, and that if he stays in the camp they'll probably set it all on fire to lure him out. In truth, he doesn't really have much of a choice but to go out and meet them as far away from the camp as possible. The problem is, Eragon's delayed too long talking with Nasuada, Orrin et. al. and Murtagh and Thorn now have a massive advantage over him and Saphira. In aerial combat, being up above your opponent is pretty much the best advantage you can hope to have. They're slow in climbing while you're fast in diving. If they try to rise rapidly they wear themselves out much faster than if they were to circle, but if they circle then there's a chance of losing site of you. Plus, being slower, they have less effective maneuverability. While they might be able to dodge out of the way of a stooping dive if they're lucky and have good timing, the person diving also has sufficient speed and momentum to get back at least on your level, if not above you, while you need to keep a watch out to see which side they're coming up on.
Before he leaves to fight Murtagh and Thorn, Eragon is farewelled by Arya, who gives him a bit of extra energy (even though it would have been more efficient for Arya and the other elves to give Eragon all of their available energy to him at this point) and has a pretty decent piece of characterisation. The way she says that she doesn't want to see him "broken by Murtagh" and almost says something more is maybe the closest Paolini ever comes to showing Arya maybe developing in-character feelings for Eragon. He never capitalises on this moment later on and their relationship remains a one-sided wish fulfillment but, hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day!
As Eragon and Saphira leave the ground, the elves sing them farewell. I wish I was kidding.
“Fly well, Bjartskular!” the elves sang out as Saphira launched herself off the embankment.
While "sing/sang out" is a slang term for yelling out and could work if it was part of a character's way of speaking or if the narrator was in first person, it doesn't work here in third person, and neither does it add to the pseudo-epic style that Paolini was attempting with the book. All it does is conjure images of a group of elves, hand outstretched to Saphira, singing opera as she takes flight.
[Caption: Picture of Christopher Holloway, an opera singer, performing]
Knowing that he's the protagonist in a bad fantasy novel and that Murtagh will allow him to to reach the same level as himself so that he can give a villainspeech, Eragon doesn't connect his mind to Arya or the other elves until he's already flying. You'd think that, as a soon as he found out that Murtagh and Thorn were there, Eragon or one of his posse would have suggested that they all link before Eragon went into battle in case Murtagh was competent and attacked as soon as he could. But, no, they have to do it when Eragon is already on the battlefield, so to speak. We also learn that, despite Eragon not having mind melded with Arya anywhere near as much as Saphira, he knows her so well that her thoughts wouldn't distract him. Yet, not more than a few days ago, Eragon didn't even know that Arya had lost her lover to Durza when he attacked them at the start of the Blue Brick. She's not even the same gender or species as him, with eighty odd years more experience than him. There's so much about Arya and her thought processes that Eragon can't possibly know from the few times he's been psychically linked to her. Paolini is trying to show that they have a deep connection in order to set up their future mutual love, but there's really no evidence of the deep connection before this, nor afterwards, when Eragon doesn't always understand why Arya does things.
Anyway, Murtagh allows Eragon a free ride up to his level and Eragon holds his sword aloft like Murtagh in order to prevent it from cutting Saphira's wings or neck.
[Caption: Picture of Picard facepalming with text: 'Just. Stop. / Your stupid is making my brain cry.']
We've already established that Saphira's scales are a form of armour so, even if they won't stop a determined cut or thrust by an inhumanely strong opponent, they should at least prevent damage from an accidental touching of neck and sword. Even worse than this, though, it implies that Eragon can't control his sword well enough during ordinary flight in order to guarantee that he won't cut Saphira's wings. If he can't control his sword that well when she's merely climbing, how the hell is he going to avoid doing so when in combat? I want to talk about the dynamics of combat for dragons and their riders later on but, suffice to say, Eragon's sword is canonically more likely to hurt Saphira than any enemy.
When Saphira is level with Thorn, Murtagh regales Eragon with the tale of his Galbatorix killed five of his servants and tortured Thorn and himself for letting Eragon go free at the end of the Red Brick. There is no demand for Eragon to surrender in the name of ending this all peacefully, nor does Murtagh seem to have any reason for allowing Eragon to and Saphira to reach him other than to tell Eragon how much he suffered for letting him get away last time. That's not the kind of speech you deliver to someone who you've let nullify any advantage you had over them. That's the speech you give to someone after your dragon has driven their's into the ground and you're crushing their head into the ground with your foot. Worse yet, given his treatment by Galbatorix, Murtagh has no reason to let Eragon reach him before giving such a speech. Oh, I know that Paolini wanted to make sure that Murtagh knew all about the possibility of his True Name changing, thus freeing him of his oaths, but this could still have been delivered while Murtagh was taking Eragon to Galbatorix.
This part of the chapter shows yet another piece of accidental good characterisation. When Eragon offers up his carrot, Murtagh is conflicted about it, and doesn't seem like he's going listen to Eragon. Thorn, however, looks back at him and they have what seems to be a brief conversation that changes his mind. There's a sense of them being equals, or at least that Murtagh cares enough about Thorn to risk being hurt by false hope. Compare this with Eragon ignoring Saphira's reminder about his oath to kill Murtagh and avenge Hrothgar or his treatment of her during the whole Helgrind level. There's really no equality in their partnership, with Eragon taking the dominant role and Saphira doing whatever he tells her to. Murtagh and Thorn,
in this instance at least, appear to have a much more equal and mutually supportive relationship than Eragon and Saphira. They are, if you will, the better representation of dragon and rider, as put forward by Paolini in the first book.
In the pseudo-philosophic discussion that takes place following Eragon's revelation about how True Names can change, Murtagh makes nothing but good points. He's fixated on changing his True Name making him better or worse than he is now, as opposed to "different" as Eragon puts forward, but that's understandable given the position he's in. His identity and the crimes of his father have always haunted him, and now his identity is being shaped and forced into something else by Galbatorix. It's only natural for Murtagh to have doubts and fears over anything involving changes to his identity. Beyond that, though, his comments that Galbatorix has been doing this for a long time and would have taken precautions against their True Names changing are entirely valid, as is his decision to research the problem thoroughly before attempting anything and explanation that the two of them can't change their names in a day. As such, Murtagh and Thorn have no choice but to obey Galbatorix in the immediate future and so must fight Eragon and Saphira in an attempt to take them back to Galby.
Is Eragon saddened by this cruel irony or does he consider the pros and cons of coming along peacefully in order to work on Murtagh some more? No, he's angry that Murtagh and Thorn aren't able to immediately break free of Galby's influence and join him and the Varden in one big happy family. Except for the dwarves, who would, of course, attempt to kill Murtagh and anyone who got in their way and would, if prevented from doing this, leave the Varden entirely. Also, Eragon's refusal to avenge Hrothgar would likely see him declared an oathbreaker and get him banished from the Dwarven lands and see Orrik shamed and unable to become King of the dwarves. But the dwarves don't really contribute anything significant to the Varden or the story, so we wouldn't notice their loss.
Anywho, after literally minutes of attempting to come up with a peaceful alternative, Eragon loses his temper in a fit of petty rage and refuses the peaceful end to the hostilities offered to him by Galbatorix. There are some legitimate reasons not to volunteer to go off to become a mind-slave, such as not wanting to be a mind slave and knowing that, with the only proper anti-dragon weapon gone Murtagh and Thorn should be able to defeat the Varden in detail, but Eragon's only reason for refusal is anger at his clever idea being thwarted by reality. And so,
the aerial battle begins.
It does not get off to a good start. Saphira rotates " her wings in their shoulder sockets, so that, for the span of a heartbeat, she pointed straight down, her wings still parallel with the dust smeared ground, supporting her entire unstable weight." Leaving aside the puzzling description of the ground as "dust smeared", I'm fairly sure that Saphira shouldn't be able to rotate her wings 90 degrees unless she was some kind of biomechanical hybrid. There's not even a real need for her to perform this kind of maneuver. Her attack consists of a twisting dive that allows her to hit Thorn on his left wing with her tail, breaking all the bones in it. Worse, she (or, rather, Eragon since he's really the one in charge) doesn't even capitalise on the attack, watching as Thorn tumbles down and Murtagh heals him with a preprepared spell. Had they attacked now, Saphira and Eragon could have continued to inflict damage on Thorn, and perhaps even killed Murtagh before he could heal Thorn. And, despite Eragon saying that using preprepared spells was a good idea, I'm fairly certain that it doesn't come up again in the books.
There are a few other nonsensical elements to the battle, such as Saphira spiraling around a column of Thorn's fire or her own fire splitting in half for no rhyme or reason and missing Thorn entirely. The real headscratcher in the battle, though, is the difficulty the elves have in sending energy to Eragon and Saphira.
As he prepared to mend Saphira’s wing, Arya said, Wait. Do not.
What? Why? Can’t you feel Saphira’s pain?
Let my brethren and I tend to her. It will confuse Murtagh, and this way, the effort shall not weaken you.
Aren’t you too far away to work such a change?
Not when the lot of us pool our resources. And, Eragon? We recommend you refrain from striking at Murtagh with magic until he attacks with mind or magic himself. He may yet be stronger than you, even with the thirteen of us lending our strength. We do not know. It is better not to test yourself against him until there is no other alternative.
And if I cannot prevail?
All of Alagaësia will fall to Galbatorix.
Eragon sensed Arya concentrating, then the cut in Saphira’s wing ceased weeping tears of blood and the raw edges of the delicate cerulean membrane flowed together without a scab or a scar. Saphira’s relief was palpable. With a tinge of fatigue, Arya said, Guard yourself better if you can. This was not easy.
Just think about this for a moment: thirteen holier-than-thou, immeasurably-superior-to-humans elves struggled to heal a three foot cut in Saphira's wing. You'd think that this would mean that their aid would be minor in the event that Eragon got into a magical battle with Murtagh, but they're able to go toe to toe with multiple Eldunari. Admittedly they're falling towards the ground at the time and so Eragon is getting closer and closer to the elves, but there's no conscious thought along the lines of "Oh, I'm going to get closer to the elves and make it easier for them to support me". It's pretty much an accident that Eragon came closer to the elves than going further away from them during his magical battle, since he decided to use magic to defend against Murtagh's attempted mindrape while both dragons were plummeting to the ground.
The elves basically win duel against multiple dragons while dealing with the inefficiencies of a long range mind-link. That's some really inconsistent writing there, given that the Eldunari are meant to grow even more powerful than living dragons after a few years. Murtagh clearly has several of them, otherwise there wouldn't be a "multitude" of voices, so if we take this scene at face value, then the dragons were clearly never a threat to the elves, since it only takes two or three elves to match a dragon, which gives the elves even less reason to join with the Dragons and form the Dragon Riders, beyond having a winged pet. Which, to be fair, totally fits with the society that Paolini portrays even if not with the society he wants to portray.
This fight would go so much better if Eragon had been using the magic stored in Aren and/or if the elves had already given him all the strength they could afford before he entered into the fight. It avoid the contradiction of the elves sending enough energy to Eragon via their link to defeat Murtagh et. al. despite having visible trouble healing Saphira previously, and it would allow Aren to serve an actually useful plot-related purpose. Just think about it for a moment: rather than feeling the elves drop out of the circle one by one, Eragon feels all the extra strength given to him by the elves draining out of his body and, desperately trying to win the battle, draws on Aren, his patrimony, only to watch it drain rapidly away. Only at the last instant, when there's barely enough energy left in the ring to sustain a rabbit, does the drain cease. Brom's last gift, supposedly this enormous store of energy, all used up in a few seconds for no real gain. Imagine Eragon's shock and horror in this situation, and all the difficult questions he'd have about how Murtagh had so much power to draw on. The tension and drama would be ratcheted up several notches, and there would be much more urgency in discovering Murtagh's secret.
Anyway, Murtagh and Thorn manage to get away on account of Saphira's impact with the ground knocking Eragon out - but magically not doing her any any damage - and another Murtagh's preprepared healing spells for Thorn. The elves, not having any safety nets in their neural links, are very nearly killed by the fact that Eragon's magical attack on Murtagh persisted even after he fell unconscious, and the decision is made to not pursue Murtagh and Thorn. This is the best decision made in the chapter so far: neither Eragon nor Saphira are really in any condition to start another fight, and they would need to chase the pair over to the Empire's camp, which would put him at risk from the Empire's spellcasters. They might not offer much of an individual threat, but dozens or hundreds of spellcasters all attacking him at once would surely overwhelm Eragon's defences and allow Murtagh to capture him.
The remainder of the chapter deals with the aftermath of battle with the Laughing Dead. I've already gone over why the casualties shouldn't be so bad and why the composition of the force sent out against them doesn't make sense, but I don't think I pointed out that Nasuada, on learning about what had been done to the Empire's soldiers, immediately wants to replicate it and use it on a few hundred "volunteers" and no one thinks that copying the Empire might be a bad idea. They've all just seen a group of mad berserkers wipe out a large number of soldiers,
and their immediate reaction is "awesome, let's do that too!". Wouldn't a better, more morally upright, thing be to work out how it was done so that it could be undone? Having a few hundred berserk shock troops would certainly be an advantage, but would it outweigh the image of the Varden copying the Empire and the inevitable shunning of the Varden's Laughing Dead?
But, then, the Varden more often act like the bad guys than the Ultimate Good Guys™.
Finally, the chapter ends with Roran and Katrina deciding to have their wedding within an hour of the battle, Roran's logic being that he doesn't want to wait in case he dies before the next day and Katrina's logic being that all the food was already cooked and all the decorations put up. I can understand Roran's sudden fear of his own mortality, but Katrina's excuse really rings hollow. The food could just as easily be kept for the next day, and there's no reason why the decorations couldn't stay up overnight. More importantly, switching the wedding to the next day would prevent them from having the wedding at the same time as a mass funeral was going on. Hundreds of the Varden's soldiers were killed, which likely means thousands grieving for them and hundreds digging their graves. To have a wedding going on at the same time would be downright disrespectful, and I'm pretty sure would be seen as bad like besides. Besides, if you want to give everyone a morale boost by having a wedding, you need to give them time to grieve first, not try and combine celebrations and grieving all at the same time.
There's just no empathy there.
63 comments
[1]
torylltales
April 26 2017, 00:29:45
[Caption: Gif of Frodo saying 'You're late'.]
heh. Looks like it was worth the wait though, I'll read it properly in the morning
[1A]
hergrim
April 26 2017, 06:55:57
It could have been so much later. I cut out a whole discussion on the fact that Dragon Riders have no role in aerial combat other than as observers and healers, neither role Eragon performs well, as well as some comments on some very unnecessary use of description.
I think the takeaway from this is that I need to start working on my next spork now.
[1A1]
w3rew0lfgirl_99
April 26 2017, 09:00:26
I wish they did something cooler than trying to sword fight.
[1A2]
torylltales
April 26 2017, 10:47:37
Maybe the time spent reviewing and cutting could have been better spent ranting. ;)
Nah, it's all cool. We're not on an actual deadline, and if you have real-world priorities that take... priority... then sporkings should rightfully take a back seat. We kept ourselves well entertained in the interim.
[2]
theepistler
April 26 2017, 00:46:08
I really wish Eragon and Murtagh would stop using the Pause button in the middle of combat so they can chug some health/mana potions. It this supposed to be a novel, or a game of freaking Skyrim?
[2A]
zelaznamaska
April 26 2017, 07:00:49
In the immortal words of Lord Vivec, "The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength."
[2B]
w3rew0lfgirl_99
April 26 2017, 08:58:59
Pause buttons are a magical power....Now I just need to find life's rewind button.
[2C]
torylltales
April 26 2017, 10:48:18 Edited: April 26 2017, 16:48:55
I really wish Paolini would stop using the pause button in the middle of action scenes to add in more overblown description or unnecessary exposition.
also don't you know that Alagaesian combat is turn-based?
[3]
w3rew0lfgirl_99
April 26 2017, 08:57:37
lol the singing elves
[3A]
kayliolayskie
April 26 2017, 09:17:12
I laughed. The photo was awesome too XD
[3B]
anontu
April 26 2017, 17:23:04
Launch into a musical upbeat Broadway number.
[4]
torylltales
April 26 2017, 10:45:36
Is Eragon saddened by this cruel irony or does he consider the pros and cons of coming along peacefully in order to work on Murtagh some more? No, he's angry that Murtagh and Thorn aren't able to immediately break free of Galby's influence and join him and the Varden in one big happy family. Except for the dwarves, who would, of course, attempt to kill Murtagh and anyone who got in their way and would, if prevented from doing this, leave the Varden entirely. Also, Eragon's refusal to avenge Hrothgar would likely see him declared an oathbreaker and get him banished from the Dwarven lands and see Orrik shamed and unable to become King of the dwarves. But the dwarves don't really contribute anything significant to the Varden or the story, so we wouldn't notice their loss.
This bit bothered me so much. You can't change your entire personality and internal sense of self just because I told you to? How dare you, you evil monster! Eragon's selfishness and interpersonal naivete is on full display here, it's almost like he hasn't developed a theory of mind yet, like he's not aware that Murtagh is a person just as mentally complex as himself, and has just as much ability to change the very core of his personhood in a single moment of inspiration as Eragon does. He either doesn't understand that, or he doesn't care and expects the impossible simply because he's requesting it.
[4A]
theepistler
April 26 2017, 11:41:59 Edited: April 26 2017, 11:42:14
He is SUCH a freaking sociopath, not to mention ridiculously childish given that he's supposed to be a mighty warrior and, by the standards of his society, a grown man. He seems to think that everybody else should be expected to act according to his personal convenience and obey his every little whim. And as you say, he doesn't seem to actually view Murtagh as a human being with a mind of his own. Because that's how he views everybody, even Saphira. It's as if he can't grasp the notion that other people really exist independent of himself. Why else does he show so little concern for other people's problems? Note how he never bothers to ask them about it. He doesn't even ask Saphira how she's doing. Unless it's directly brought to his attention, he doesn't even consider it.
The short version: he just plain doesn't have any empathy. It's honestly depressing that Paolini seriously thinks he's a good, heroic, noble person when he's this callous and unfeeling.
EDIT: Toward his own BROTHER, no less.
[5]
theepistler
April 26 2017, 11:09:16 Edited: April 26 2017, 11:10:44
What? Why? Can’t you feel Saphira’s pain?
My gods this line is cheesy. It sounds like something out of a bad pop song. Feeeel my paaaaain...!
And if I cannot prevail?
All of Alagaësia will fall to Galbatorix.
I think Pao forgot that this is not Middle Earth and that he is not in fact writing Lord of the Rings. It would explain why this bit is so utterly out of place. For one thing, this isn't the Final Battle, or even close. It's a minor skirmish against a sub-boss. It's as if Eragon losing to Murtagh is somehow analgous to the Orcs getting the One Ring. And the second line makes even less sense. Um, moron? Galbatorix is already King. The land "fell" to him eighty freaking years ago. Paolini keeps making a big deal out of how Galbatorix needs to be stopped before everything falls into darkness or whatever, when the guy has already won and is currently not doing anything. If you want to have some sort of urgency/sense of threat in the series, then you can't afford to keep mum about what the villain's Big Evil Plan is. Otherwise, what are the "heroes" trying to save the People from? Is Galbatorix planning to turn everybody into "mind slaves"? Conquer the rest of the planet? Kill everybody just for shits and giggles? What? Our Fearless Author seems to think it's enough just to throw in a bunch of melodramatic proclamations about how "the fate of Algalbloom is at stake", etc. etc. and leave it at that, and it rings very hollow indeed.
I also really wish this confrontation had actually accomplished something. Instead, it may as well not have happened at all. As Paolini has now resorted to using Video Game Logic for all his fight scenes, all the PC characters walk away completely unscathed. What is even the point of having fight scenes if they change exactly nothing in the story and nobody actually gets hurt? It's not as if it was exciting or suspenseful to read; we already know nothing actually bad will ever happen to either Eragon or Saphira. Murtagh and Thorn are supposed to be a threat, but they really just come off as a recurring nuisance.
Hell, this whole chapter was so useless and unimportant that even the characters don't seem to care. A bunch of nameless NPCs got killed - big freakin' deal. No sense in delaying our happy little wedding ceremony! And nobody will be at all upset with us for getting married while the bodies of brave soldiers are being pitched into a mass grave! Laah dee dah, being a PC is so awesome!
[5A]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 19:02:36
As the spork pointed out, it does set up for Murtagh's turncoat by informing him he can change his true name.
[5A1]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 19:28:42
Eh, even so. Like I've said before, you can do more than one thing within a scene, and this is an entire chapter that accomplishes precisely one (1) thing, and a very minor thing at that. Which is more than I can say for most of the other fight scenes (and hell, chapters) in this book.
[5A1A]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 02:42:03
Still infinitely more than pretty much every other Chapter in this book since he killed the Raz'Acs.
[5A1B]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 02:43:12
I give it points because at least 'something' is happening. Unlike the rest of this book and much of the last (and next really)
[6]
Anonymous
April 26 2017, 11:44:21
Saphira rotates " her wings in their shoulder sockets, so that, for the span of a heartbeat, she pointed straight down, her wings still parallel with the dust smeared ground, supporting her entire unstable weight."
Yeah, I don't think flight works that way. They were having a conversation in mid-air, so I am assuming that Saphira was somehow hovering in place by flapping her wings. What good will twisting her wings out of her sockets to keep them parallel to the ground achieve? Especially when it was established earlier that physically, dragons can't support their weight using only their wings. They have to use magic too.
-TTT
[6A]
anontu
April 26 2017, 17:58:50
This is a case where too much description takes away from the scene. Saying "Saphira angled her wing and plummeted down" paints a clearer picture without the details that arise criticism. It's like why advise for sci-fi is to either know exactly what you're doing, or to be vague so you don't have people calling out incorrections.
[6A1]
vorpal_tongue
April 27 2017, 14:53:27
Comparing those two sentances, I'm getting the impression of Saphira hovering in midair, butt to the skies and face to the ground, with her wings still in place. Like she just pivoted her whole body without moving her wings, and is now hoving in the air as-is.
[6A1A]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 15:48:23
Yes, I think that was what he was going for.
Did he think that just having wings parallel to the ground will provide lift?
-TTT
[6A1A1]
vorpal_tongue
April 27 2017, 18:35:41
Yes, I think that was what he was going for.
Good grief. It's painted a daft image in my head, so I'm going to have to find that part in the book to get the proper context.
[7]
Anonymous
April 26 2017, 11:47:14
Didn't Paolini realize that Eragon came out worse in the conversation he had with Murtaug? Anyone who reads that conversation without knowing anything about the book can see that Murtaug is in the right.
Well, when I say anyone ...
-TTT
[8]
anontu
April 26 2017, 17:53:17
Too much talking and watching your opponent instead of taking advantage of their weakness, like when neither S nor E took the advantage when Saphira injured Thorn's wing. If you're going to be inspired by video games and anime, and i have, then you have to still be thinking about what it looks like. This is supposed to be a fight with high stakes and not a polite duel.
What do you guys think about Nasuada's suggestion to using their own kind of painless soldiers? Is she cold hearted and cruel for thinking of it, or considering all possibilities and giving the Varden a significant element. Is using laughing dead cruel to those who are made into them (willingly? forced?) or is it kind to those who will be protected by them being distracting fodder? Think about one of your favourite military commanders in fiction (because that's what she's intended to be) and imagine the same scenario. What would you think about their suggestion to use laughing dead?
[8A]
theepistler
April 26 2017, 20:49:43
Yeah, there is waaay too much description and pointless analysis in this supposed fight scene. Just as there is in every other fight scene. A hard-pitched duel between two dragon riders should not be as dry and boring as a tax return, but Paolini managed it.
As for Nasuada, Miss Virtue and Nobility, it's not the last time she pulls something like that. Later on she also wants to have Eragon make everybody swear unbreakable AL oaths to her, and decides to control all magic users. Both of which were ideas she lifted directly from Galbatorix. Meanwhile sweet and lovable Katrina suggests to Roran that the Varden soldiers be enchanted so they're forced to fight.
So... how are the Varden any different from the supposed Big Cheese of Evil, again?
[8A1]
theepistler
April 26 2017, 20:51:24
PS: Hey, remember how in book four there's talk of Galbatorix's particularly powerful and vicious underling, Lord Barst? And the Varden recount how he slaughtered a bunch of innocent people just because he could? It just occurred to me that the Empire could tell the exact same story, but with Barst's name swapped out for Roran. Other than the fact that they're on different "sides", they're basically the same freaking character. Hah!
[8A1A]
torylltales
April 27 2017, 11:06:40
"we're not so different, you and I..."
Or, to quote the Ministry of Sound song about Batman and the Joker:
We are two of a kind: violent, unsound of mind...
[8A1A1]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 16:33:10
Remember when Galbatorix gives the hoary old "we're not so different you and I" speech? Never has a cliche been more apt. And accurate. At least when Voldemort and Darth Vader/The Emperor did it, you know they were just trying to tempt the hero to the dark side. When Galbatorix does it he's telling the unvarnished truth. In fact he's being kind of harsh on himself; the Varden have done way worse things than he has.
[8A1A1A]
torylltales
April 27 2017, 18:45:01
[8A1A1A1]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 19:41:41
Wow, it really is a common as dirt trope. And hah, I recognise that last clip! It's from the obscure drama/thriller/satire movie Falling Down, starring... uh, Charlie Sheen's dad, I forget his name but he also played Hank Pym in Ant-Man.
[8A1A1A1A]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 19:53:32
Michael Douglas?
[8A1A1A1A1]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 19:57:23
*does some hasty googling*
Yes! Apparently I got him mixed up with Martin Sheen. (In my defense, they do look vaguely similar. Sort of. If you squint. Look, I'm bad with faces, okay?).
I highly recommend the movie Falling Down, by the way. It's grim and violent, but in a good way.
[8A1A1A2]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 02:51:31
Xenoblade has a good subversion where the protagonist says it to the antagonist (leading to the antagonist to actually have a revelation and see the protagonist as an actual human).
[8A1A2]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 19:56:02
You're the yin to my yang, can't you see?
[8A1A2A]
torylltales
April 27 2017, 21:51:11
But if I were to leave, you would grumble and grieve
Face it, Bats, you'd be lost without me!
*high five*
[8A1A2A1]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 08:09:32
Thanks!
[8A2]
anontu
April 27 2017, 21:28:27
Meanwhile sweet and lovable Katrina suggests to Roran that the Varden soldiers be enchanted so they're forced to fight.
Wow. I'd love this if it was for a character who has a sweet exterior but is a psycho on the inside. Where does this happen?
[8A2A]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 21:39:38
In an early chapter of Inheritance titled "What Is a Man". After the capture of Belatona Roran goes stomping back to his tent in a cranky mood, and complains to her that "not one man in ten" is actually willing to hurt the enemy (just like in WW1, where a good chunk of soldiers later admitted to deliberately not shooting to kill, like a bunch of big old wusses) while "men like me" are needed because they have
[8A2A1]
torylltales
April 28 2017, 01:03:30 Edited: April 28 2017, 01:07:13
If I were writing this
That would make the Varden the good guys properly. IF it were consistently applied through the whole narrative, and not just for one scene.
I would also have the Varden give the enemy soldiers decent burials according to the dominant human customs and faith rituals. Since Paolini loves movie references and terrible puns, such a chapter could even be called "a wedding and ten thousand funerals", referencing -- in Paolini's usual guileless hamhanded manner -- the film Three Weddings and a Funeral for absolutely no comprehensible reason.
[8A2A1A]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 02:48:27
Disabling without killing is also a sound military strategy as it accomplishes the same goal as killing and then some. A disabled enemy is just as unable to fight as a dead one and they require several of their comrades to leave the battle field to get them to safety. And after the battle is over a dead enemy only costs the opposing government a state funeral while a disabled enemy has to go on welfare for the rest of their life (assuming the government provides welfare, and if they don't then a disabled soldier who fought for their country and now gets no compensation for it will lower the government's standing in the eyes of the people. Plus even if they don't get welfare they still eat and consume resources).
[8B]
syntinen_laulu
April 27 2017, 05:35:27
What do you guys think about Nasuada's suggestion to using their own kind of painless soldiers?
That any 'freedom fighter' whose reaction to seeing a group of morons shambling through a fight giggling as their limbs were chopped off was 'Hey, we should do that to our spear-carriers!' should be boiled to death in butter.
(In case anybody wonders who the heck would do that, in 1222 the bishop of Caithness annoyed his parishioners so much they deep-fried him in this own kitchen.)
[8B1]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 10:09:44
Man, people sure were good at coming up with inventive ways of murdering each other back in the day. Oh, wait, they still are. :/
I think Nasuada took a leaf out of Paolini's book: She wants to copy other people's ideas, but she picks the wrong ones, doesn't understand them properly, and doesn't see why what she's doing is unethical and out of line with the ideals she's supposed to be representing.
[8B1A]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 15:50:20
Hahaha :-D
The thought of Nasuada taking a leaf out of Paolini's book.
-TTT
[8B1B]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 04:34:51
I think the real problem is the same Paolini has in those las two books:
He tries to make it look like "extreme situations call for extreme means" without bother is showing why the situation is extreme un the first place.
And so, the decent táctica of trying to copy en enemy's superior weapon comes across as unnecesary and insensitive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure there are A LOT of chapters un which this happens
[8B1B1]
theepistler
April 28 2017, 09:48:47
You're exactly right. He keeps depicting the Varden using brutal tactics, steamrolling the common people, destroying their homes and stealing their food, seizing cities that are nowhere near their goal, and slaughtering Imperial soldiers en masse. Which is how you'd expect them to behave if they were in a desperate situation against a truly dangerous enemy, constantly surviving by the skin of their teeth, etc.
But because the supposed enemy never DOES anything and consistently loses every single encounter, it just comes across as utterly gratuitous. They don't need to use these nasty tactics while contemplating even worse ones; they just do it because they can, apparently. So they come off looking like the villains.
Note, too, how the Varden never once tries to negotiate with the enemy (except at Dras-Leona, and they only do that in order to set up a "cool" Random Encounter with Murtagh). Why? Because Paolini wanted to go with the sort of setup where the bad guys are Just So Evil that it's impossible to negotiate with them; they'll never honour any agreements or make any concessions toward the Good Guys (such as making passage for the wounded or exchanging prisoners). Because they're Evil.
Except that this also fails because Teh Bad Gize aren't actually depicted as irredeemably evil. Most of them are just hapless soldiers or pompous but ineffectual nobles. Does the Varden care? Nope! They basically treat the lot of them like cheap sword fodder. And Roran, or as I like to call him, El Douche, flat-out mocks King Orrin for so much as considering any sort of diplomatic solution. Trying to resolve conflicts like a sensible human being with a brain and a heart is for pussies! REAL men brutally slaughter everyone who dares stand in their way, while laughing like a loon!
[8B2]
anontu
April 27 2017, 19:28:45
Doesn't seem like the sort of thing the supposed leader of the free peoples should be saying, does it? If the series was openly a war of grey morality factions where none are intended to be the standout heroes, I reckon it'd be different.
[8B3]
anontu
April 27 2017, 21:27:01
Having read the scene at the end where they've got the last zombie soldier prisoner, and he won't die even though they're shooting him (on accounts of Orrin's orders because he panicked), everyone there is horrified. So true, they wouldn't cope well with the same thing happening on their side even though they would be volunteers (page 338).
[8C]
hergrim
April 27 2017, 17:45:56
Think about it for a second: the Empire, according to the Varden, is objectively evil. The Varden claim that Galbatorix has only done evil since taking over their part of the world (imposing taxes, allowing freedom of religion, tolerating the existence of a tiny and friendless neighbouring country that supports rebellion in the Empire, etc). So, what do people think when, only a few days or weeks after several hundred of the Varden's soldiers were slaughtered by laughing madmen, the Varden asks for volunteers to be turned into those same madmen? How is the army going to react to the idea? It's already made up of disparate factions, and Nasuada has already generated a considerable amount of ill-will between a number of groups within the Varden. The chances are, Nasuada copying the Empire in this is going to get people asking what else she intends to copy from the Empire.
Then there's also the kind of person who would volunteer to undergo the procedure. The Laughing Dead are, in essence, expendable shock troops. Their purpose is to lead the charge and keep on attacking regardless of their wounds until they can't attack any longer. Death would follow soon after, if they weren't already dead by the time they stopped being able to attack. The people you're going to attract to this role are going to be suicidal already or else total fanatics. These people are not going to be model soldiers and, once they stop feeling pain and start with the inhuman laughter, they're going to freak everyone out. If the volunteers are, say, mostly human, then the dwarves and Urgals may just start to question whether they want to be associated with the Varden any longer.
[8C1]
anontu
April 27 2017, 21:24:10
I was thinking that in a different book, one that doesn't have black and white morality, Nasuada's decision wouldn't stand out since it'd be a world of harsh decisions. You're right in that it's baffling she would say such a thing when the varden are supposed to be the good guys. It's yet another thing showing the Varden's hypocrisy and dark side.
She says it's a despicable idea, yet they have to copy Galby to get an advantage. She isn't thinking of her subordinates who watched the last zombie solder ripped apart and not die, and who were shocked and revolted. I agree with your sentiment that even though they'd be volunteers ("We should have a few hundred swordsmen, volunteers, who are immune to physical suffering.' page 338), it'd be nightmarish for their comrades watching.
[8C1A]
vorpal_tongue
April 28 2017, 00:54:10
I agree with your sentiment that even though they'd be volunteers ("We should have a few hundred swordsmen, volunteers, who are immune to physical suffering.' page 338), it'd be nightmarish for their comrades watching.
Ol' Galbs probably realized the same thing; both times The Laughing Dead appeared, they were alone, since they had no other soldiers with them.
Actually, I just had a thought. Although Hergrim said they were expendable shock troops (though rather efficent ones at that, given they killed over twice their number in mixed forces), their second use is far better: psychological warfare. Galbs assigning several LD troops to logistics caravans and so forth could easily chip away at morale and increase paranoia in Varden ranks. I mean, when you find a small encampment of Imperials, and odds are one in three they're going to get back up, what would YOU do?
... I'm surprised Galbs didn't go the whole hog and turn them into ambush troops; get cut down, wait for things to quiet down, then get back up and start killing again.
[9]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 05:02:53
Prepared spells come up once more in the books, and again it is Murtagh using them for healing Thorn. It occurs in the Green Brick during the fight between Saphira and Thorn on top of the cathedral in Dras Leona. When Saphira sees Murtagh taking out the stone she remembers this scene and immedaiatly flies away from Thorn as fast as she can.
Anon - 4
[9A]
theepistler
April 27 2017, 10:01:07
So the "good guys" think of copying the supposed villains' particularly stupid, evil ideas, but not the perfectly sensible, practical ones. Just how moronic are these guys?
[9B]
torylltales
April 27 2017, 11:17:50
Given Paolini's magic system, how do pre-prepared spells even work with the Ancient Language limitations? Does it require conditional statements, like "If this vial is crushed, then Thorn's injuries will be healed"? Paolini did not include any conditional statements or if...then particles in his AL glossary, so we have no clue how they might work. Except for working exactly the same as in English, but with different words.
[9C]
hergrim
April 27 2017, 17:47:22
Ah, good catch. Still, you'd think that it would quickly be adopted by, well, everyone. It's an exceedingly useful application of magic
[9C1]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 02:57:32
What's actually useful about it though? Magic is said to be instantaneous in the first book and that proper magic battles can only occur when minds are linked and you can see an attack before it comes (something nobody ever actually does in the series since it's illogical to let your enemy into your mind).
So if that wasn't retconned away, what advantage does having a spell prepared before hand actually do?
[10]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 16:00:38
/or if the elves had already given him all the strength they could afford before he entered into the fight.
Actually, I am with Paolini on this one. I don't think elves store all their energy in its usable form. Like us, they probably convert it when needed. They can store small amounts of energy into gems over time, but I don't think they can just give up a lot of energy at one go without dying. The amount of energy they can give up at once without causing harm to themselves won't be significant. But they can continually generate energy, so the best thing for them is to support Eragon like they did, unless they can find a magical conduit or something which will reduce the effect of distance on sharing energy. This is also supported in text, when Eragon and Saphira give the Menoa tree small amounts of energy over time.
-TTT
[10A]
hergrim
April 27 2017, 17:50:00
You're right, the amount of magic that can be given over a long period of time is greater than that given over a much shorter period: see Eragon's thoughts when magicking himself down Helgrind. However, the magical bond with the elves is clearly not very efficient at all, given that it caused visible strain to the thirteen elves just to heal Saphira's wing. Given that and the risk associated with the drain on magic killing them all if Eragon holds onto a spell too long, you'd have to think that their more limited quick burst of energy would be more useful and safer than a longer term magical link.
[10A1]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 18:52:52
What I don't get is why they had to strain themselves just to heal Saphira's wings. That was something Eragon could have done very easily. They should have saved their strength for when he really needed it.
-TTT
[10A1A]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 03:01:11
They had to strain themselves due to the distance involved which has nothing to do with funneling energy to Eragon. Why they decided to do it is explained in the chapter, mostly to confused Murthaug. Which isn't great justification IMO but it's what the book goes with.
[10A1A1]
Anonymous
April 28 2017, 08:54:58
Yes, that was my point. If energy is such a precious resource, and they have this really inefficient transfer mechanism, it doesn't make sense for them to waste it doing something that Eragon can easily handle without their help. The 'confuse Murtaugh' thing is a rubbish justification imo.
-TTT
[10A2]
Anonymous
April 27 2017, 18:57:04
Also, they can give a burst of energy. But they should not tire themselves out so much that they collapse and can't support him during the fight. I see it as the difference between lifting a stone for a few hours vs. lifting a boulder for a few seconds.
-TTT
[11]
minionnumber2
April 28 2017, 05:01:16
I'm wondering if Paolini was mocking this out in some tabletop system since he doesn't appear to have enough unit points to have Galby bring out both of his dragons. One engages Eragon, the other flattens the Varden and takes care of that problem while also giving Eragon nowhere to run. Better yet, have both dragons take Eragon THEN burn down the camp.
Galby is failing at this being evil thing so hard.