Brisingr Spork Chapter 28 - For My Love

[pangolin20]

kris_norge wrote in antishurtugal, 2017-08-09 01:50:00

Brisingr Spork Chapter 28 - For My Love

Greetings fellow antishurties.

It seems the person originally assigned to this chapter was indisposed so I'll be taking it over. Which is a good thing as it provides my brain with a pleasant break from the wakeup-gym-work-studies-bedtime cycle I've been on for the past few months, discouting a two-week vacation in the late 14th century.
Anyway, this is a military chapter, the kind I love, so without further ado, let us begin :

So we begin with Roran still trying to left a pebble with that spell I'm not even going to try and spell out. I really don't know why he still bothers. Remember that Eragon discovered his magical abilities in a desperate situation, before Brom taught him anything. And I think Roran's had plenty of desperate situations where, if he had magical ability, he would have unleashed it. That magician Carn comes to see him and Roran slips the stone "into his belt". Putting aside the fact that he would even keep a random pebble, what does "into his belt" even mean? I've seen it in cartoons but it makes little sense. Does he put it in his pants?

So then we get a brief description of the warrior band, "Their group was thirty strong, himself included. They were all hardened warriors. Everyone carried a bow, and most also wore a sword, although a few chose to fight with a spear, or with a mace or a hammer." Thirty strong I suppose is a decent number for a raiding party, and that they are all hardened warriors is good I suppose. Except raiding bands and skirmishing is usually the best way to get trained but untested youths real combat experience before they find themselves in a full scale battle where the outcome actually matters. But my real problem starts with the fact that "everyone carried a bow". Why??? Because these bows are not used at ALL in the subsequent skirmish! There were a couple of instances where they could have been handy. I would also like to point out that proper use of a bow is a lifetime of practice and that is why archers were usually specialized troops. You can't train an archer overnight. And in a melee, carrying bows on their persons would be more of a hindrance than anything else. The best thing would have been to have a certain number of good bowmen and then a number of juggernaut-type troops, good for shock. And as far as choices of weapons go, my opinion is that all of them should have either a bow or a shortened spear and then carry a sword or mace or hammer as a second weapon once the bow or spear is obsolete.

Then we get an infodump on Roran's commander : Martland Redbeard, "the deposed earl of Thun". Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm quite sure this is the first mention we ever get of noble titles, or of the very concept of Galbatorix having vassals and being anything less than an absolute monarch. Anyway, this guy gives Roran a fairly standard "You're in the army now" speech. He does do the good job of rightly assuming that Roran is used to having his own way and reminding him that he is in charge now. He also tells Roran to not try and flatter him into a good opinion of him because he doesn't care if Roran likes him, just that he can do the job. Now the point is good, except that in my experience, it is best shown and not told. When I was in military school I had this one officer who was quite mean and did everything to make us hate him - a real hard ass. He saw straight through anyone who tried to suck up to him and became even harder. Then at the end of military school, when we graduated, he was suddenly very nice and full of praise for us. The point is, you SHOW you're a hard-ass. You don't TELL it.
Apparently Roran is tired from a few days of riding and also has a mental itch directing him to Katrina. We get a brief description of Carn who is apparently not a very powerful wizard but a clever one, which is fine by me. The soldiers are discussing their commander, Martland Redbeard. Apparently Galbatorix sent soldiers after him but his servants had poured pools of oil all over the place and when the imperial soldiers were there he set it on fire, killing the soldiers and making it seem as if he and his family died when in fact they had a tunnel leading outside the estate to the nearest river. Clever enough I suppose. My question though, if Martland is such a competent commander, then why is he stuck in command of thirty fools leading raids on supply trains? He should be in charge of larger operations, especially as an earl. If perhaps this were explained by, maybe, some discrimination by the Surdan nobles for nobles of the Empire, that could have been interesting sociological worldbuilding.

The next scene jumps straight to the charge into the skirmish. He is charging straight in on Snowfire with his hammer. A spear I think is a good weapon for the initial clash as it can be driven or thrown with massive force right at the moment of impact, hopefully downing the first opponent. "The two soldiers started and fumbled with their weapons and shields." so I guess they caught these imperial soldiers unaware. That is relatively remarkable, considering that ambushes with horses are incredibly hard to pull off but then we don't get any information about the layout of this ambush. "Roran stood upright in his stirrups and, drawing abreast of the first soldier, struck him on the shoulder, splitting his mail hauberk" Uh huh. A hammer will certainly inflict serious damage to the bones under the mail, but probably won't damage the mail at all. Of course the issue I have is that Roran is still using a smith's hammer, improperly balanced, not suited to be a weapon. A hammer is an excellent weapon for someone who lacks training as it requires less skill to use than other weapons but plays to superior strength and stamina. I came up second at a tournament through the use of the war hammer even though I lack skill at arms. But it was balanced like a war hammer, and NOT a tool. The other soldier retrieves his spear and, for some reason, jabs at Roran rather than at the horse. Roran takes the blows on his shield. An issue I have here is that Snowfire rears and kicks the dude, essentially behaving like a war horse. Even though war horses who do these kinds of tricks in fights are years of training : foals bred, raised, and trained to the task.

As Roran is rushing to assist one of the other Varden who is apparently fighting three empire soldiers by himself, an ox tosses its head and Roran gets his calf torn. In a fight the adrenaline might keep the pain from affecting him but it's a good thing he's fighting on horseback. I'd argue that the ox horn shouldn't have injured him with a mere toss of its head, but really we have no clue about what kind of armour Roran is wearing, or of the setup of the convoy or deployment of the ambush, which makes this scene a little hard to picture.

I have issues with this next bit though. A soldier is fleeing, Roran pursues and, being unable to escape, turns around and slashes at Roran with a saber. "Roran lifted his hammer and barely managed to deflect the razor-sharp blade". Ok, I'm surprised he managed to deflect it at all. In medieval reenactments, we use blunted swords that are actually heavier than their sharpened medieval counterparts whereas our maces and hammers are considerably lightened to not injure each other. Yet the swords are still faster than the maces and hammers. And Roran's hammer isn't even a proper balanced war hammer made to be used quickly but a heavy tool. No way could that thing have caught the saber in time. "He immediately retaliated with a looping overhead attack, but the soldier parried and then slashed at Roran's arms and legs twice more. In his mind Roran cursed. The soldier was obviously more experienced with swordplay than he was; if he could not win the engagement in the next few seconds, the soldier would kill him." Really? Plot armour aside, Roran has those wards Eragon set on him. Surely they could deflect the soldier's saber long enough for someone else to come give a helping hand.
"Having no other recourse, Roran resorted to the unexpected: he stuck his head and neck out and shouted, "Bah!" just as he would if he were trying to scare someone in a dark hallway. The soldier flinched and as he flinched, Roran leaned over and brought his hammer down on the man's left knee." Really? Really? REALLY? A soldier who seems to have a fair amount of experience and skill is thrown off in a fight by a "Bah"??? Really? In my experience, when you're in a swordfight, in the heat of it, the bastard can shout or make faces or do whatever he wants and it won't throw you off because your attention is entirely focused on his eyes and limbs and his sword.

Roran then returns to the skirmish site. On this rare occasion, five minion-class soldiers actually proved to have brains and to have pulled three wagons into a triangle, essentially making a wagon fort. This is a pretty good defensive tactic in country warfare but unfortunately it is only used here so Roran can show off his awesomeness again. He charges past the wagon fort and LEAPS OFF THE SADDLE INTO THE WAGON FORT! Now I'm not all that opposed to the move. But didn't Roran just get his calf torn by an ox horn? If he were covered in plate and could afford to take a few blows and shrug them off, this might work. But Roran is injured in the leg and we don't know what armour he has. I'm surprised he could even make the leap with the injured leg.
But he successfully slaughters the soldiers against all odds. There is an odd bit where, knowing the last soldier is right behind him (however that happened) Roran flips down onto his back and instead of killing him, the soldier holds the sword at his throat before being killed by Martland Redbeard.
Roran then gets his injury tended to by Carn and he muses over his kills. He actually thinks somewhat rationally, asking himself "Must I slaughter entire fields of enemies to regain what the empire stole from me? And if I do, how could I return to Palancar Valley and live in peace when my soul was stained black with the blood of hundreds?" But of course, in typical Paolini fashion, the problem is brushed away with a simple answer "I kill for my love." and that's basically the end of the issue and it never bothers him again.

As for the rest, the Varden kill the oxen because they would be too slow to bring back to the Varden, record the contents of all the wagons, which is sensible, and burn them which is stupid! Why the hell do they burn them? There were bags of wheat which I'm sure the Varden could use, given their seemingly constant lack of supplies. But more importantly, there were stacks of uniforms! Now I'm just going to ignore the issues of uniforms in a feudal world, but those uniforms could be extremely useful ! They could wear them to infiltrate Galbatorix's army and do some sabotage operations! But no! They burn them! And then they ride off.

57 comments

[1]

Anonymous
August 9 2017, 18:08:15
Don't be silly, they can't do subterfuge operations because they are "noble good guys" and they don't use such underhanded tactics

[1A]

torylltales
August 9 2017, 22:36:15
They leave that to the local witch/Mary Sue to sneak around and poison the enemy's food supplies.

[1A1]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 09:37:37
Gods that bit was fucked up, and not in a good way.

[2]

Anonymous
August 9 2017, 18:12:03
The " I kill for my love" answer has the same problems as Eragon 's response to being the son of Morzan: It could have been a valid conclusion, if it wasn't so rushed and forced.
It should have been several chapter-wide steps

[2A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 09:40:39
Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. Katrina has nothing to do with any of this. Maybe if she was still a prisoner and he was fighting to rescue her, but now she's been long since rescued and is 100% irrelevant to the story.

Also I really doubt she'd be very happy to hear that's his excuse for mercilessly beating guys to death with a hammer. "I'm doing it because I wuv you!"
"Um, what?"

[2A1]

syntinen_laulu
August 12 2017, 18:02:05
To be fair, 'For my love!!!' is an excuse that men in European culture have been using for leaving their wives or girlfriends to go off with their mates to beat other people up, for slightly over 900 years. And if those wives or girlfriends weren't totally convinced by it, they still pretty much had to suck it up and behave as if they were.

[2A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 18:13:22
Bet you fifty bucks Paolini doesn't know that and was just trying to make Roran sound Noble and Good. We're already well aware he knows fuck-all about history after all.

[2A1A1]

syntinen_laulu
August 12 2017, 18:19:38
I'm not taking your bet!

But he surely has read about knights errant in shining armour going about doing brave deeds for the sake of their lady loves, and guff like that. It's a bit like Thesaurus Disease: he knows that 'I do these deeds for my love!' is or at any rate has been A Thing, and so he drops it in without considering whether it's in any way consonant with Alaglog culture.

[2A1A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 19:23:25 Edited: August 12 2017, 19:24:17
Aw, man, I needed that money for booze. :(

Yeah, he probably does know about those stories. Problem is that in this case it doesn't make a lot of sense in context since there's been no indication that this is a society where guys impress their lady loves by going into battle and earning their spurs and so forth. Plus it's the first of many examples of Roran using Katrina as an emotional crutch rather than coming off as if he actually cares about her. Remember - this isn't supposed to be a medieval style union; Paolini literally based their relationship off his middle-class white American parents.

[2A1B]

kris_norge
August 14 2017, 20:14:35 Edited: August 14 2017, 20:49:52
Well speaking as a historical re-enactor, I can tell you there is always a good excuse to go off with my mates and beat people up and get beat up! :D It's really quite exhilarating except this weekend I was in a battle in Belgium and a spear went under my faulds and hit my groin. That hurt!

But really, for my love is an excuse used far more often tournaments than in warfare. In war, they have their reasons and don't usually pretend they're doing it for their loves. Tournaments, however, are all about showing off, being a peacock, and being as flamboyant as possible in dress, battle skill, and gallantry. Their success in these tournaments raises their ladies socially too, so it's a win-win.

"For my love" may have been a valid excuse for Roran if there was any development to it. How about "So that she and my unborn child may live in peace and not have to pay for my stupidity? I'll slaughter mountains of mooks to make sure they don't have to pay for my mistakes, let alone my cousin's."

[3]

hergrim
August 9 2017, 18:35:12
Ah yes, "indisposed", aka non-existent time management skills in my personal life, a burning hatred of Game of Thrones that kept coming through in my spork and a really excellent TV show I've been marathoning. Thanks for picking up my slack!

But my real problem starts with the fact that "everyone carried a bow". Why??? Because these bows are not used at ALL in the subsequent skirmish! There were a couple of instances where they could have been handy. I would also like to point out that proper use of a bow is a lifetime of practice and that is why archers were usually specialized troops. You can't train an archer overnight. And in a melee, carrying bows on their persons would be more of a hindrance than anything else. The best thing would have been to have a certain number of good bowmen and then a number of juggernaut-type troops, good for shock. And as far as choices of weapons go, my opinion is that all of them should have either a bow or a shortened spear and then carry a sword or mace or hammer as a second weapon once the bow or spear is obsolete.


I feel like the issue of training an archer to be militarily useful is often overstated. Mike Loades did a series called "The Weapons That Made Britain", and he trained up a group of non-archers to be able to hit a cut out of a man on a horse at fifty meters pretty consistently within 3 days. Vegetius and Psuedo-Maurice also considered archery something that could be learned relatively quickly. The real limit is the amount of time you have to drill a recruit in archery and then have them build their strength up. Your average recruit should be able to pull a bow between 70lbs and 80lbs without any problems, and then take between six months and a year of practicing for an hour a day for them to work up to 100lbs. It then seems to take about six months to a year for each extra 5lbs of draw weight. For a group of veterans like this, they should have had enough experience to be competent with a bow as well as a melee weapon. There's also some evidence of troops being armed with spears and bows in the Carolingian period, both mounted men and cart drivers.

In the main, though, I agree with you. The bows seem to have been thrown in there as a way of showing how flexible the Varden raiders are, but ultimately serve no purpose except in one instance that occurs in a few chapters. There's no real reason for every member of the part to be armed exactly the same, and assigning the men primarily to one roll or another will reduce confusion, allow for increased initiative, and improve their skills with their respective weapons. Something like the English system of hobelars and mounted archers used on the Welsh, Irish and Scottish borders would be more ideal.

The other soldier retrieves his spear and, for some reason, jabs at Roran rather than at the horse.

I think this makes pretty good sense. Horses are a valuable prize, and surprised, panicky people are more likely to attack the direct threat to the exclusion of thinking about alternative ways to get out of their predicament. I know that horses in the 19th century generally sustained more casualties than the human members of their regiment, the numbers were often no more than 20% of the men, and rarely over 50%, which suggests that they weren't necessarily targeted during the melee.

Roran then returns to the skirmish site.

Has it been established anywhere that killing one member of a magic mind duel will harm the other? I don't really remember. I feel like, if not, then Roran probably should have helped out his friend Carn and killed the enemy mage with an arrow or bashed in his head as he went past.

[3A]

hergrim
August 9 2017, 18:35:21
On this rare occasion, five minion-class soldiers actually proved to have brains and to have pulled three wagons into a triangle, essentially making a wagon fort. This is a pretty good defensive tactic in country warfare but unfortunately it is only used here so Roran can show off his awesomeness again. He charges past the wagon fort and LEAPS OFF THE SADDLE INTO THE WAGON FORT!

Because that's the logical thing to do, rather than regrouping the entire detachment of raiders, assigning some of them to archery duty, and advancing in a shield wall against the wagons under the covering fire of some archers. /s

So much of the series is based around having characters show off how awesome they are, without really paying attention to how things would likely play out in a more realistic scenario. I imagine that Redbeard would probably be pissed with Roran's recklessnes and would give him a "what the fuck do you think you're doing?" speech rather than saying "You'll do."

[3B]

kris_norge
August 9 2017, 20:09:40
If you're busy hating Game of Thrones, perhaps you'd be interested in working with me on a tactical analysis of the Battle of the Bastards ?

[3B1]

hergrim
August 9 2017, 20:17:35
Sure. I did one last year, but I've learned a lot since then and want to rewrite it almost entirely.

Have you seen this week's episode yet?

[3B1A]

kris_norge
August 9 2017, 20:32:16
Thanks for your own analysis. I'll give it a look and then we'll see if we have time to work on one and post it here.
And yeah, I've seen this week's episode. What are your feelings about it?

[3B1A1]

hergrim
August 9 2017, 20:48:47
I'm very frustrated with the episode. It would have taken the Dothraki horses at least three months to recover from their time on board the ships, and if they were more than walked for anything more than half a mile or so, up to half the horses would have died.

The process of landing the horses would have been noticed and messages sent by raven and rider to Cersei, who would have passed the warning on to Jaime by the same methods. Jaime, being a reasonably competent commander and having two other experienced soldiers with him, would already have had scouts out, so even if this message didn't arrive in time he would still have between an hour and half an hour, assuming that all his long range scouts were killed and he was only relying on his flankers and foreriders.

The Lannisters would have drawn up with at least four ranks of foot and two ranks of archers, and all the foot would be armed, not just a single rank of foot. If they had more than an hour's warning they might have found a more defensible location, but if not they should have used the wagons and horses as barricades to make up for their fatigue and low numbers.

Rather than a single, technically unworkable great crossbow, they should have been using multiple iron framed inswinging scorpions, as well as crossbows of two feet (according to Jean Liebel's definition), because dragons were always a danger.

The Lannisters never really stood a chance, between the vast number of Dothraki and Dany on her dragon, but even Dany was overpowered by the standards of the books (where only 5000 men out of 50 000 were killed on the original Field of Fire). She also destroyed what is meant to be most of the surplus food of the Reach, which is a grave strategic error if she intends to keep the people of King's Landing alive throughout the winter.

Of course, there are other issues, like the fact that the wagon train traveled over 131 miles per day, the previous siege of Highgarden, the fact that Highgarden wouldn't have enough gold to pay of all of Westeros' debt, etc.

[3B1A1A]

kris_norge
August 9 2017, 23:53:07 Edited: August 9 2017, 23:56:24
What you and I should do one day when we have the time and leisure is a thorough analysis of as many aspects as possible of what is commonly called "the most realistic fantasy series" out there

[3B1A1A1]

torylltales
August 10 2017, 10:13:45
I would really like an analysis of the battle scene in Dave Luckett's Dark trilogy, too, because I consider them to be the most realistic, down-to-earth fantasy series I've ever read (aside from the goblins, skeleton warriors and other various monsters). Including detailed descriptions of arms and armour, the use thereof, and the pitfalls of wearing full plate versus lighter armour.

And one of the best siege scenes in any fantasy war story I've ever read, including Helm's Deep.

[3B1A1A1A]

kris_norge
August 11 2017, 02:09:25
I'm good with that. I'll dig out what I feel is a vastly underrated fantasy series. What I found remarkable about Dave Luckett is that at the beginning of the first book his actively acknowledges the influence Tolkien's work has over all fantasy writings, his own included.

When I'm finished my thesis I'll take a look at those books. Will it be ok to post analysis of the battles in there here?

[3B1A1A1A1]

torylltales
August 11 2017, 09:24:35
woohoo! I look forward to reading your analyses. Absolutely post them here, A_S branched out a while back to include book other than just the IC, so it's all good.

[3B1A1A2]

hergrim
August 10 2017, 17:36:37
Book or show? Either way, I'm game.

[3B1A1B]

thegharialguy
August 11 2017, 01:04:08
It's season 7. Everyone has a teleporter.

[3B1A1C]

kris_norge
August 12 2017, 02:05:22
What I found most puzzling about the episode was how Jaime was charging Dany with a spear in the shallow water, Bronn, dives him off his horse to save him from Drogon, and suddenly they're in incredibly deep water. What the hell happened there????

[3B1A1C1]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 09:43:35
That scene was really cool and exciting, but the levels of plot armour were ridiculous. I fully expected either Bronn or Jaime to die, or both of them, or Drogon. The fact that all three of them survived was really pushing it.

[3B1A1C2]

hergrim
August 12 2017, 12:16:29
I could see some justification for it because rivers are sometimes weird like that, but Jaime seems to have fallen into the middle of the river, rather than rolling off a sudden steep shelving of the floor.

The issues seems to have arisen because of the script: originally the battle was going to be fought around a bridge, and Jaime was going to be shoved off the middle of it by Bronn. Things probably got changed while they were looking for a suitable site, but they liked the visual of Jaime sinking and looking at Lannister soldiers drowning in their armour, so they kept it.

Side note: the wagon train would have been over 400km long if they were transporting just one year's worth of food to the city: Dany should have all the grain she needs for her armies now.

[3B1A1C3]

thegharialguy
August 12 2017, 12:28:39
I'm more curious has to how Brom managed to get there to save him in time but he's clearly not in the shot during the charge, or if he is somewhere in the background, not nearly close enough. Must be using that teleporter everyone's abusing to travel so fast.

[3B2]

thegharialguy
August 11 2017, 01:08:33
On the subject of the Battle of the Bastards and this spork, there was a sort of exmilitarty drill sergeant employed to keep us all, I suppose motivated would be the apt word. He was a real hard ass but much like your guy it was clearly all an act. Still he had the heir of authority to him and was well practiced at dishing out insults. One in particular sticks out to me as by far the harshest thing I've ever heard. "You're as wanted as a double cot death."

[4]

syntinen_laulu
August 9 2017, 19:14:47 Edited: August 9 2017, 19:15:01
Putting aside the fact that he would even keep a random pebble, what does "into his belt" even mean?

I really don't think CP actually takes the trouble to visualise his characters' costumes, and consider how they are shaped, what they are made of and how they work, at all. Remember that bit about Nasuada somehow having a dagger concealed in 'the folds of her dress'? Of course you can put some things in your belt perfectly easily: a short stick, a pair of gloves, a rolled parchment, things like that. My guess is that he has just encountered that phrase and used it without thinking. (Unless of course he envisaged Roran wearing a utility belt like Luke Skywalker, and I suppose we can't rule that out, either.)

"Roran stood upright in his stirrups and, drawing abreast of the first soldier, struck him on the shoulder"

He stood upright in his stirrups to do that? Making himself unstable in the saddle just when he's going to make a powerful swing and most needs to be stable so that the momentum of his blow doesn't actually unhorse him? Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely what you'd need to do when on horseback and about to whack someone with a heavy weapon is to sit as firmly down in the saddle as possible?

[4A]

kris_norge
August 9 2017, 19:23:05
Well the bit about standing in his stirrups isn't all that bad. Some fighters do so to gain an advantage in height over other horsemen and the balance isn't all that bad in the stirrups for a fight swinging weapons. I haven't yet trained in mounted fighting, but so far as I know, the only attack for which you ABSOLUTELY need to be firmly seated in the saddle is the charge with the couched lance. The clash is so intense that if you're not firmly in the saddle, you're flying back over the rump of your horse.
But for swinging weapons from on horseback it's alright I think.

[4A1]

hergrim
August 10 2017, 18:04:43
I've done a little digging around in 19th century cavalry manuals and Duarte, and it looks like standing up in the stirrups would be bad form when attacking with a sword when your horse is moving at any speed, but it may have been used if at a stand still, or partially used against infantry (all the weight being put on one stirrup and leaning in that direction). It would probably also depend a lot on the type of saddle and stirrups. The "English" saddle of Duarte seems to have been a balance saddle, with the lags almost straight, so little would be gained by standing up. The Brabant saddle, on the other hand, appears to have had shorter stirrups, so might have offered some advantage if you stood up in your stirrups.

[4A1A]

theepistler
August 11 2017, 01:22:55 Edited: August 11 2017, 01:24:32
Of course this isn't even getting into the fact that Roran has ZERO experience in fighting on horseback. Come to that I think this is the first time you see him on a horse, period. How would he even know how to do that? Who taught him? When did he practice horseback combat? Oh, that's right - never. He can just randomly do it, with neither instruction or practice. Not to mention that he's riding a horse that also has no combat training. Did I mention I hate the Roran subplot? Because this is a major reason why. He just pulls badass warrior skills right out of his arse! It's so stupid. Not to mention insulting to everyone who's actually put work into becoming good at fighting, horseback riding, rhetoric, and all the other skills Roran just suddenly has for no reason.

[4A1A1]

thegharialguy
August 12 2017, 12:29:51
Isn't it even established in the first book that Eragon has little experience riding horses and is sore from travelling all day on one?

[4A1A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 12:36:10
Yep. Don't ask me why it should be any different for Roran. How does he know how to ride, period? It's not something you can just do; it takes years of practice just to ride around on a horse, and years more to master showjumping. Dangerous trick/stunt riding is something you'd probably need a lifetime of training to do properly, and you'd need the right horse. Roran's owned Snowfire for - what - a couple of DAYS? Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure you need to establish a trusting relationship with a horse before he'll let you monkey around on his back. And I'm pretty sure you can do that in less than a week. They're not machines, Paolini. They have minds of their own, and they're pretty smart.

[4A1A1A1]

thegharialguy
August 12 2017, 13:03:07
My sister is pretty big into horse riding. I wouldn't say it takes years just to ride around. Of course it depends on the temperament of the horse and natural talent of the rider. Moot point though because the ridiculously bloated timeline means Roran doesn't even have weeks to learn.

[4A1A1A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 13:16:51
Well I was being a little bit flippant. I should have said it would probably take years to learn the basics of horseriding - tack, hoof care, proper feeding, dealing with different terrains, what to do if the horse gets spooked, etc. etc. I admit I don't know much about horseriding, but it just seemed like common sense to me.

Hell, you can't even ride a freaking bicycle without some instruction and practice. And yet Paolini acts like you can just jump on a horse and instantly know exactly what you're doing. Sorry, pal - that only works in video games, and sometimes not even then.

[4A1A1A1A1]

syntinen_laulu
August 12 2017, 18:09:46
I forget, did Garrow have farm horses in the book? In the movie he did, which is blurring my memory. If so, both the boys would have been used to handling and caring for horses, even if they didn't ride them.

[4A1A1A1A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 18:11:33
Apparently they had at least one horse - a draught horse named Birka who is name-dropped at the beginning of Brickingr. No word on whether they ever rode said horse.

[4A1A1A1A1A1]

syntinen_laulu
August 12 2017, 18:35:46
It would be odd if they never did at all, even just getting on it bareback when fetching it from pasture. It's the sort of thing that kids brought up around working horses just do.

(I had an elderly neighbour who was evacuated from London during WWII, aged 9 or 10. He was billeted with a milkman and his family in the West Country, and it became his job to take the huge but very gentle shire horse that pulled the milk float to and from her field. He would go down to the field in the morning with a halter, put it on her and lead her to the field gate, then climb the gate from where he could get on to her back, and they would clop sedately the half-mile or so to where the float was kept. But in the evening things were much more exciting. He would climb up, with just a halter on her as before, and walk her out of the yard, but she was so keen to get back to her nice field that she would speed up and as often as not eventually break into a gallop, and this huge creature galumphed thunderously all the way down the lane with little Colin just hanging on to her mane!)

I agree though that even so, Roran's being able to manoeuvre and fight from horseback without any training is totally absurd. There's a reason why every body of cavalry in the entire history of the world was either formed out of people who were reared in a horseback-fighting culture, or had been intensively drilled as a group before going to war.

[4A1A1A1A1A1A]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 19:11:16
Which is kind of weird, because in the first book Eragon pretty much acts like he's never ridden a horse before.

Either way, as you say even if Roran does know how to ride a horse, his sudden ability to make Snowfire do a big showy jump over an obstacle, then later on vault out of the saddle like an acrobat is utterly ridiculous. That's like saying that because I know how to ride a bicycle I should be able to go down to the local skate park and do a bunch of awesome flips with no practice. On an ordinary street bicycle which isn't designed for stunts.

[4A1A1A1A1A1A1]

syntinen_laulu
August 13 2017, 01:04:18 Edited: August 13 2017, 01:06:18
I just found via Google Books that at the beginning of Eragon we're told that on Garrow's farm, among other livestock 'lived two horses - Birka and Brugh'. When Brom buys horses, we're told that Eragon 'had only ridden horses bareback and never for any distance' and is by implication daunted by the idea of riding a spirited young horse long-distance, which actually makes perfectly good sense: if you've only ever straddled a plodding draught horse to take it to its field and back, that's a tall order. For once, CP showing some horse sense! Which makes Roran's exploits all the stupider.

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theepistler
August 13 2017, 10:55:43
Hah, I remember now! Back in the day some people actually complained that Eragon took to long distance horse riding too easily, given that he was supposed to have no experience in it. But of course that was also the book where he learned how to read in a week and became a Master Swordsman in six months, so there you go.

I love how he bothered to name the two farm horses which play no role in the story. CP has a weird habit of giving dopey "Fantasy" names to every little thing no matter how unimportant.

[5]

torylltales
August 10 2017, 09:56:11
I do enjoy your battle scene examinations.

"Having no other recourse, Roran resorted to the unexpected: he stuck his head and neck out and shouted, "Bah!" just as he would if he were trying to scare someone in a dark hallway. The soldier flinched and as he flinched, Roran leaned over and brought his hammer down on the man's left knee."

Two things I know from personal experience:

1. This probably would go completely unnoticed by a trained soldier. Even with safe empty-handed martial combat where you're not fighting to kill or be killed, a trained fighter would respond to a sudden exposure of a vulnerable target area by instinctively attacking it as quickly as possible. We train for exactly that. And sounds and conversation tend to dim into the background a lot of the time, so yelling 'bah' would have zero effect on anyone in a battle.

2. Even if the soldier did flinch, they're not going to startle so violently that there's time to swing a hammer onto their knee unless it's already only a few inches away. They're certainly not going to flinch so badly that they can't step back, parry with their sword or shield, or even just raise their leg out of the way and possibly even kick the hammer out of Roran's hand.

[5A]

syntinen_laulu
August 10 2017, 18:42:37
Is that even in any way 'unexpected'? is not ferocious yelling one of the standard ways that men psych themselves up (and their opponents down) for a clash of arms?

[5A1]

anontu
August 10 2017, 22:07:06
Yeah, I don't see how Roran's shout is unexpected. Solders would make sudden noises out of frustration, pain, to scare their opponent, whatever, and we're expected to believe Roran's well trained opponent had never experienced this enough to make a fatal falter.

[5A1A]

syntinen_laulu
August 11 2017, 22:54:04
- And to assume that he isn't yelling as loud as he can, himself!

[5A1A1]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 10:03:11 Edited: August 12 2017, 10:04:54
As if that wasn't enough, yelling "Bah!" goes on to become his secret weapon! And it ALWAYS WORKS. It works when Eragon uses it too.

Paolini really thinks his readers are a load of fucking idiots.

[5A1A1A]

kris_norge
August 14 2017, 21:13:58
I actually made fun of that in my book. In this one storming of a fortress, one of my characters who shares Roran's brutality (and is progressively becoming a primary villain because of it) but who actually deserves his efficiency in warfare (months of training and years of working as a mercenary) is climbing a ladder. Then a soldier looks over the wall and my character goes "Bah".

Now Roran does this in the siege of Urû'baen and "the soldier flinched and stepped back". In my book, the soldier was looking over the parapet in the first place because he had a rock in his hands. The character swings to the side to dodge it but still takes the rock in the shoulder, falls from the ladder, breaks his leg, and is unable to finish the battle.

[5A1A1A1]

theepistler
August 14 2017, 21:19:53
*snicker*

I admit I've taken a few subtle jabs at Inheritance in my own writing. For instance I have a character who thinks he's a hero but who is in reality a cruel, racist jackass with the brains of a prawn. He never really twigs to the fact that nobody likes him much, and spends a good chunk of his character arc mooning over a woman who's way out of his league.

[5B]

Anonymous
August 11 2017, 10:13:37
This is going to be beaten like a dead horse, but how has Roran not got his ass kicked by a soldier wielding a sword, spear, or anything better than a relatively small black smith hammer?

[5B1]

theepistler
August 11 2017, 10:50:46
Because the author says so, and there's literally no other reason than that. Why oh why has Roran not traded in his dinky little hammer for an actual weapon? Gah!

[5B1A]

torylltales
August 11 2017, 16:27:27
Exactly that. Plot Armour, because he's one of the Author's Darlings.

[5C]

kris_norge
August 26 2017, 05:26:49
Hey torylltales, since we're on the topic of being distracted during fights, have you ever seen the "The Duellists" about two feuding officers during the Napoleonic Wars? One of the interesting things during some of the duels there, when the opponents are completely static facing each other, one taps the tip of the other's blade with his own, and goes very slight "Bah", to try and distract his opponent. In an unarmoured swordfight, one split second of distraction and you're a dead man.

[6]

theepistler
August 10 2017, 10:39:49
Is this the chapter where Martland gets his hand chopped off and it doesn't even bleed? "Meticulously researched" my ass.
Either way this is about the point where Roran's pointless subplot officially shed all credibility and became just plain ridiculous. Sure it was hard to swallow him randomly becoming an Inspiring Leader in the last book, but this is just plain ludicrous, and unbelievable to the point of insulting. You're seriously expecting us to buy that this random peasant with zero training suddenly knows about fancy trick riding? On a horse which has never been trained for it and in fact has never been trained for combat situations, period? He's a fucking riding animal, not a destrier! Real warhorses were trained since they were foals! He should be freaking the fuck out! And somehow Roran - who again, has zero combat training - is able to hit people from horseback with a hammer shorter than my forearm? And then is able to kill a guy with it by yelling "bah!" in his face? When said guy is a trained soldier?

Bull. Shit. This is so stupid it's outright pissing me off. And to cap it off, none of this will serve any actual purpose in the story. Roran's entire character is utterly unnecessary, and giving him all these random stupid chapters to show off how Awesome he is for no reason is ridiculously self-indulgent. Was one obnoxious overpowered Gary Stu not enough for you, Paolini?

[6A]

anontu
August 10 2017, 22:13:35
From memory Martland loses his hand later. Just one thing

On a horse which has never been trained for it and in fact has never been trained for combat situations, period?

He's a fantasy good guy's horse with a fancy name, so did anyone expect anything different? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Otherwise I agree with all the rest.

[6A1]

theepistler
August 11 2017, 00:42:17
Whoops, silly me. I forgot that this is also the point in the series where the story stops being a quartet of novels and turns into a bad RPG. >:(

[6A1A]

anontu
August 11 2017, 17:08:35
This is something that might be worth a discussion. What kind of realism is expected from the Inheritance Cycle? It's not clear because Eragon and Eldest is more traditional heroic fantasy and the second two bring in gritty realism. Having main characters be unrealistically strong and skilled fits the bill with the first two books, but not the second two. So which is it?

[6A1A1]

theepistler
August 12 2017, 10:08:54
It's yet another case of Paolini wanting to eat his cake and have it too. He's trying for gritty realism, but still can't bring himself to treat his characters like actual human beings. And when the style starts aiming for realism, that's when the presence of infallible Mary Sues really starts to get obnoxious.