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torylltales wrote in antishurtugal, 2018-05-14 13:24:00
Brisingr Spork Chapter 43: Among The Clouds
Eragon and Saphira go flying!
~
Eragon could have run the length of the tunnel in about ten minutes, but since the height of the ceiling prevented Saphira from flying or jumping, she would not have been able to keep up, so he limited himself to a brisk walk
~
Are you trying to tell me that a giant four-legged creature cannot run as fast as a tiny two-legged half-elf? I would believe this if Saphira were a wyvern that had to walk on her wings, but she is very clearly a Western dragon style, with four legs and two wings. Given that most four-legged creatures that are considerably larger than a human can also run considerably faster than one (the exceptions being elephants, which in both species are simply too massive to get much faster than around 6 metres per second, and hippos, who can only reach about 8 m/s for the same reason), I have to conclude that either Saphira has really been getting into the Varden’s food supply, or she is incredibly clumsy and has to walk slowly to avoid tripping.
The rest of the page is boring details that are far more precise than they need to be, and far less necessary than they should be.
~
Within the valley below, ridges of heavy clouds clung to the sides of the mountains like vast grey snakes”
~
Is anybody else confused by this metaphor? I’ve never seen clouds look like this. I almost get the impression Paolini hasn’t been in a plane before, and is trying to apply his imagination (for once). Just do a Google image search for “mountains poking up through clouds” or “clouds from above on a mountain”, I can’t think of many things that look less snake-like.
~
Eragon has an overreaction to drinking cold water. Might want to get those cavities checked, Eragon.
~
Finally, after a full page of basically dithering, Eragon climbs into the saddle.
~
“the passes between the mountains were over five miles high”
~
For the record, the peak of Mount Everest is 5.4 miles high. I know it’s been said, I just wanted to remind you all that the peaks of the Beor mountains reach into the stratosphere. Just more of Paolini’s ridiculously childish exaggeration and one-upmanship, along with Eragon’s ridiculous power-ups Roran’s ludicrous kill-count, and many other examples.
~

[Caption: Gif of Jeff Bridges saying 'That is Ridiculous']
~
Saphira and Eragon talk about the time Eragon Broke The Rules and proved that magic and the AL aren’t inextricably linked after all, but brush it aside as Eragon simply not having "the time to think of the words".
~
Dude. You just broke magic. You disproved everything you’ve ever been told about how magic works, the entire conceit of Galby’s (currently unknown) plan to control all of magic using the Name of the AL, the biggest acknowledged reason for you being sent to live with the elves for months to learn to speak the AL better and apply it with magic, and the entire and only reason for Elva to be living a cursed life as a monstrous abomination. And all you can do is shrug it off and carry on?
~
Having a stiff upper lip is all well and good, but either Eragon is more British than John Oliver serving scones with clotted cream on a rowboat on the Thames wearing a leather-elbowed tweed jacket and a straw boat hat as Mary Poppins sings Wouldn’t It Be Loverly while swinging a croquet mallet, or he really is so dumb that he doesn’t realise the enormity, the magnitude of what he’s done.
~
In a good book, this would be a major paradigm shift that sees Eragon questioning everything he’s been taught, and possibly even deciding that his place isn’t hidden among the elves while his friends and family and allies are all on the frontlines of a massively outnumbered rebel faction. If I were writing this Eragon and Saphira would immediately head back to the Varden frontlines where he is needed, Oromis be damned. If he could learn to consciously harness the power of “reweaving the world into a form more pleasing to him” without needing to rely on knowledge of the AL words or syntax, he could easily become an unstoppable God-Modded force.
~
Instead, we get
~
“But you never use the Ancient Language”
“That’s different, I’m a dragon.”
~

[Caption: Gif of a baboon shoving a laptop off a table]
~
Moving on.
~
The orange sun was a handsbreadth above the horizon
~
I quote this because, and this may be a controversial opinion, I really like it. Using common easy to understand measurements in place of specifics is definitely a step in the right direction for Paolini. Of course he could have just said “The sun was low”, but using ‘handsbreadth’ links it back to the fact that Eragon is living in a medieval, pre-standardised-measurements world, and this was a legitimate way to measure latitude and direction by measuring the stars against parts of your hand.
~

[Caption: Gif from Moana: Moana holds her hand up the the sky, while Maui says 'You're measuring the stars, not giving the sky a high-five']
~
Eragon comments that if they had flown to the elves the first time, they would have got there faster and had much more time to spend with Oromis. Time that Eragon should realise would have been wasted, because he can perform magic perfectly fine, accurately and precisely, without needing to know the AL words even to think them. He can perform magic by simply wanting to.
~
But this point never occurs to him, so the idea that he could have spent more time with the elves to learn about Dragon Ridering seems like a good thing.
~
Saphira is stupid enough to try to fly directly into a headwind, instead of either landing and progressing on foot (or by jumping), or flying above the wind. Also, Saphira is an animal larger than a horse, who flies by a combination of magic and muscle power. How strong is this wind that it can have such a dramatic effect on her?
~
This is one of the things that bugs me consistently about the series, Paolini is extremely inconsistent about Saphira’s size. Some scenes she’s larger than a house, other scene she’s small enough to curl up under a tree. Some scenes she’s this big lumbering ferocious intimidating predator, other scenes she’s small and light enough to be buffeted around by a stiff breeze.
~
Saphira “licks her chops”, which is ridiculous and hilarious because that’s something cats and dogs do, but Saphira is a reptile, not a mammal. The only example I can find of any reptiles licking anything about their face, it is to keep their eyes moist. That’s literally the only example I could find. Saphira isn’t amphibious so she shouldn’t need to keep her eyes wet, and there’s no other reason she might lick her lips like a cat.
~
And then in the next paragraph, she’s panting from exertion. So, apparently Saphira is no longer a cat, but a dog. A trusted veterinarian explained that “panting in cats is never normal […] If your cat is panting, there’s something more serious that needs to be investigated.” (Source)
~
If Saphira is based on a cat, then she’s based on an overweight cat with heart disease and/or a lung disorder.
~
If she’s meant to be a dragon, based on lizards and dinosaur-like animals, i.e. not mammals… she shouldn't be panting.
~
Eragon has a Moment of Sensibility™ when he remembers that, hey, there’s an almost incomprehensibly huge store of magical energy sitting on his finger! But Saphira refuses to draw from it because it would be more necessary elsewhere.
~
Spoiler: I think this may well be the last time the ring is mentioned. It is certainly never used. It’s the Chekhov’s Gun that was sold for gas money offscreen, and all of the characters are too ashamed to talk about it.
~
Eragon thought of the dwarf woman Glumra, and of her faith in the dwarven gods, and for the first time in his life, he felt the desire to pray.
~
Okay.
~
Um. Just – just give me a moment.
~

[Caption: Hades I'm fine I'm cool gif]
~
One of the things I hate most about this series – not exactly by a wide margin, but it does come out on top – is how utterly generic and underdeveloped the human culture is. Their language is ‘default’, they have no religions, no superstitions, no stories or explanations for phenomena. The only cultural trappings we see in the whole series is a generic-ass funeral rite that could have come from any video game, and a wedding ceremony so painfully bereft of identity that it serves only to highlight the problem even more.
~
Thee is more worldbuilding in a single line of dialogue from a 90s video game than there is in Alagaesia Human world – when she finds her husband dead in a dungeon in Baldur’s Gate 2 cutscene, Jaheira offers a short prayer: “Silvanus, guide the light to its source. Take this man to what he justly deserves. By nature's will, what was given is returned; what was turmoil is now... is now peace.”
~
In comparison, Eragon’s culture has no gods, no stories or allegories or aphorisms, no explanations for things around them (like, where did the moon come from? Why do plants grow? Who or what makes it rain? Aside from Fat Joe, of course) either scientific or religious. No holidays or celebrations, no history of their own aside from one or two famous humans (e.g. King Palencar, Heslant) mentioned only a few times. They don’t seem to have a calendar or any events/feast days (aside from a trade fair) to mark the seasons. They just sort of... exist.
~
What makes it worse is that nobody reacts as though they have no culture. When Eragon is taught about the dwarf gods, he doesn’t ask, “what’s a god?”. He understands the concept of gods well enough to immediately accept the possibility of the dwarf gods existing, he just doesn’t have any gods of his own. Or language, or culture.
~
The only distinct feature that seems to exist about Alagaesian Humans is that they are Not Elves and Not Dwarves.
~
I mean, there is a slim possibility of explaining this away as a result of Galby’s ruthless oppression of culture, but even then the rebellious older people might throw in some whispered hints about the forbidden Old Ways/Old Gods or something. Like how the rebels in Star Wars greet each other with “may the Force be with you” in defiance of the empire’s anti-jedi stance. But we don’t even get that.
~
And then, even if Galby did actively try to do anything tyrannical about suppressing culture, people still continue to have young children. They would still tell stories to their kids, if only to get them to shut up and listen for a few minutes, and to lull them to sleep. Kids still ask a thousand questions a day, to which someone with no science or religion would still be tempted to make up any old story just to get a moment of peace.
~
"I TOLD you, the rain falls because Ngani the thunderstorm goddess is sad because she can never be in the same place as her husband Welu, the sun god who pushes his flaming wheelbarrow of fire across the sky to keep his cooking-fire bright in his home under the Western edge of the world, because it is too cold underneath the world. Now shut up and go to sleep."
~
See, I made that up in a couple of minutes, completely from nothing, but Paolini with all of his years of research and planning couldn't be bothered to give his human characters even the most basic of beliefs or stories. ‘Human’ culture in Alagaesia is void of creativity, introspection, curiosity, imagination, or even the slightest bit of actual humanity.
~
Anyway. Moving on.
~
“Eragon whispered, “ Guntera, king of the gods, if you exist, and if you can hear me, and if you have the power, then please, still this wind. I know I’m not a dwarf, but Hrothgar adopted me into his clan, and I think this gives me the right to pray to you.”
~
Oh yes, this is a flattering prayer that any god would be glad to answer. “ If you have the power”. “I think I have the right to pray to you”.
~
Eragon can’t even be humble when praying.
~
Of course, because Guntera and Eragon are both just extensions of the Overgod of Alagaesia, Christopher Paolini, the wind drops overnight.
~
And even then Eragon isn’t happy. “Blast it. We won’t make it to Ellesmera today, will we?”
“Not unless the wind decides to blow in the opposite direction and carry us there upon its back.”
~
A god you doubted and insulted came to your aid in a desperate hour of need and did exactly what you asked of him, and your response is “but why can’t you just do everything else for me as well?”
~

[Caption: Gif of giant stone head from Zardoz looking stunned]
~
Anyway, despite all Eragon’s entitled whinging, they manage to make it to the forest by dusk, where Eragon scries with Oromis.
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Oromis is deliberately unhelpful. “I will not instruct at a distance. […] your studies are just as important as protecting the Varden, maybe even more so. We must do this properly, or not at all.”
~
A decent novel would have Eragon saying “fine, if that’s the way it must be. I choose to defend my friends and the innocents caught in the crossfire of this war, with or without your help”.
~
But that would be (a) too much like Eragon having a moral backbone, and (b) way too similar to Luke running off to Cloud City to rescue his friends even when Yoda told him his training was not complete.
~
And this series is already far too similar to the Star Wars original trilogy for comfort.
~
Instead, Eragon and Saphira discuss the menoa tree and Solembum’s prophecy yet again. In an attempt to heighten the “mystery”, Saphira suggests the weapon could be anything, like a spell or a book or a sharp rock, rather than anything relating to swords like Eragon automatically assumed.
~
The chapter about travelling closes predictably, with yet more travel.
~
* tildes (~) have been used to represent extra whitespace lines, because I'm tired of grappling with Livejournal's utterly broken wysiwyg editor.
60 comments
[1]

snarkbotanya
May 14 2018, 13:57:05
Paolini is extremely inconsistent about Saphira’s size. Some scenes she’s larger than a house, other scene she’s small enough to curl up under a tree. Some scenes she’s this big lumbering ferocious intimidating predator, other scenes she’s small and light enough to be buffeted around by a stiff breeze.
This bothers me too. It's also not just Saphira: Thorn resizes himself a couple times, if I recall correctly, and I'm pretty sure Glaedr's huge-ness varies a bit as well. The only dragon whose size might be kind of consistent is Shruikan, and that's because we only see him, like, twice.
See, I made that up in a couple of minutes, completely from nothing, but Paolini with all of his years of research and planning couldn't be bothered to give his human characters even the most basic of beliefs or stories.
He really doesn't, does he? I recall in Eragon that after Garrow died, Eragon had a brief, generic Rage Against the Heavens moment, but no gods are actually named, and it's not given the emphasis that a genuine crisis of faith should have gotten. Then, in Eldest, Eragon finds the elves' lack of religion "alien", but again, we aren't given anything about the gods of humanity. And now having him want to pray "for the first time in his life" implies that he's always been a non-worshiper... even when there were vague statements in the previous books that implied his subscription to some ill-defined human religion. So not only is it a worldbuilding failure, it's also a continuity error!
[1A]

torylltales
May 14 2018, 14:07:31
I think it's a symptom of a wider problem in generic high fantasy. In Dungeons and Dragons, for example, all the non-human races have interesting traits and abilities and +1 skill benefits, and then humans are like "mediocre at everything, but they have a wider choice of class". Hooray.
But games can sort of get away with it, because they have to balance everything in the end so no one race/class combination can easily outdo any other, in order for the game mechanics to not break and become basically unplayable. Stories don't work like that, though, there should never be a blank slate 'neutral' race unless it's a joke, like in Futurama.

[Caption: Gif from Futurama: 'Neutral' character saying 'I have no strong feelings one way or the other.']
[1A1]

cmdrnemo
May 14 2018, 15:37:50 Edited: May 14 2018, 15:38:25
I'm not familiar with most others. D&D justified it as humans are the baseline from which the others are measured. Which means that humans can't have any bonuses or penalties. Otherwise you are trying to work with a tape measure that starts with an arbitrary number. Newer editions try to make things special by saying humans tend to pick up a more diverse skill set than other races. Treating the average stat roll as the baseline at the same time killing off what little sense the stats ever made. But that's neither here nor there.
From what I can tell the population of Alagaësia consists of several groups
The elves who once lost a war with the dragons and have since been completely enslaved with their minds completely cored/replaced by that of an undead dragon wearing them like a meat puppet only pretending to still be elves in the presence of other races to reduce suspicion.
The humans who have nearly but not completely been assimilated over the centuries. Currently in an end game body snatchers scenario with only very few independent survivors. Most of whom have been duped. (I still like 'whom')
The dwarves: mostly themselves but only just. Holding to tradition and culture with beyond religious fervor in a desperate attempt to keep their own minds. Their defenses are crumbling.
The urgals are in a position somewhere between that of the humans and dwarves. Without the solid backing of out of universe culture to fall back on they'll succumb quickly.
And the dragons, who are mostly ghostly liches at this point. With just a few hints of Dalek.
[1A1A]

Anonymous
May 15 2018, 02:04:11
Race balancing in D&D is probably yet further part of the legacy of Tolkien, where indeed the Humans of Middle-Earth are mediocre by comparison. They don't have the wisdom of elves or the skill of dwarves or the innocence of hobbits, but they seem to be better survivors than any of those, because they also lack their inherent flaws (elvish pride, dwarvish greed, hobbit complacency)
That said, I've noticed it discussed before on this site, and seen it denied, yet it remains that when the writing is criticized "like a D&D game" is still extremely common. Even with the amendment that it's like a "bad game" there really isn't a total agreement on which of the many variants is being referred to? Are we talking AD&D? 3.5? 4? Pathfinder? Those are all different things trying got offer different experiences. I understand that the comparison to D&D is easy to make, but is it really applicable?
Why not compare it to WOW for a change--it would be a better model for the kinds of critiques that are usually couched in D&D terms: obsessive focus on power levels, acquiring loot, convenient morality, all in a rather generic setting.
Roleplaying is an extremely complex form of entertainment that means different things to different people, and it serves a very outdated stereotype to compare genuinely shitty writing to a single branch of a much larger tree.
[1A1A1]

cmdrnemo
May 15 2018, 03:36:05
It's probably just a natural side effect of the popularity of D&D over the years as a roleplaying system. For best results, imnsho, it should be used for the differences between what makes a good roleplay story and what makes a good novel. In a roleplay story, especially for D&D, the objective is to make the players happy. Combat is more often than not on a grid and intensely focused on small scale tactics. The plot and setting are less important than the character interactions. And character motivations can be and often are either ignored or were never much more than a vague desire to do things, acquire wealth and power, or simply survive. D&D is not a spectator sport. It's seldom fun to watch, the stories it creates have little to no structure. Even if you work at as much of a story focused game as you possibly can. The players will not behave the way you expect. Things will need to be invented whole cloth in the heat of the moment. It will be a rough draft with zero editing and broken pacing.
So if you have a story that feels like an unedited first draft with wonky pacing and character motivations or actions that only make sense with out of universe reasons. If the story feels like it has a divide between PCs and NPCs. Then the RPG comparison works. And, let's face it, D&D is the Xerox of ttRPGs.
WoW on the other hand. Yes it's very familiar to a large number of gamers in a certain age range. I got a toon up to level 15 in a free to play weekend at one point over the years. Then uninstalled it. Tab targeting cooldown management is not my cup of tea. I get what you are going for. It's an RPG. It has all the RPG story and setting elements for exactly the same reasons. It's as fair to say WoW as anything else.
This was a lot of words to say: D&D is basically the band-aid or kleenex of RPG systems.
[1A1A1A]

theepistler
May 15 2018, 17:24:10
I'm with you. D&D is a great way for players to be creative... but it's not fun to watch. It's only fun for the players. And the point of a novel is to entertain the audience, not the author and the author alone. And, as you say, Paolini writes as if he's playing D&D by himself. Everything is just made up on the fly, and problems are solved by getting power-ups or having luck always go in the protagonist's favour (to be fair, I think Paolini's playing with loaded dice).
[1A2]


May 18 2018, 18:26:52 Edited: May 18 2018, 18:49:31
In the setting I'm building I gave humans just one special trait that makes them different: They are the civilization equivalent of cockroaches. Destroy their holy trees?
Burn down their cities? Sic a magical plague after them? They will, one way or another, survive that. You could destroy all traces of human civilization, and all you'd archieve would be reducing humanity to hunter-gatherers. Soon they'll figure out proper metalworking again and start anew.
Also, like cockroaches, they are everywhere! They live in deserts, forests, mountains, plains, no matter the environment, you will find human groups or settlements.
[2]

theepistler
May 14 2018, 17:41:22
Eragon continues to be tooth-grindingly stupid, and tooth-grindingly entitled! Why are we even supposed to like this asshole?
The ring actually will be mentioned again, but only so Eragon can use it as a Deus Ex Machina to open the gates of Dras-Leona. Other than that he completely forgets about it for huge spans of the trilo- uh, quadrilogy. And no, he doesn't add any more 'energy' to it even though that would be a very good idea. Because of course he doesn't.
Next up is Butting Heads with

[3]

Anonymous
May 15 2018, 03:17:11
In Eldest, Eragon learns that pebbles don't grow from the ground like plants. That's the only human belief I remember being mentioned. It's not really faith, either, just a fairly logical assumption.
[3A]

snarkbotanya
May 15 2018, 05:32:59 Edited: May 15 2018, 05:33:34
I'm pretty sure the "rocks grow" belief was something he picked up from the dwarves during his little visit where Arya made fun of the priests, so it's not even a human belief.
[3A1]

Anonymous
May 15 2018, 06:02:40
I'm pretty sure that the growing pebbles idea was something Eragin picked up as a farmer. It was a throwaway line about how the pebbles were actually falling back into cleared fields and not growing up from the ground like he thought.
The dwarves used coral as an example of a growing rock to back up their own beliefs. And now that I type that, I can't remember if Eragon decided that the pebbles were growing because the dwarves showed him coral, or if he held that belief going in. I know he came to the conclusion due to being a farmer, though.
[3A1A]

snarkbotanya
May 15 2018, 07:22:54
Lemme find the relevant passage...
"What is that?" he asked, pointing.
"Coral taken from deep within the sea that borders the Beors."
"Coral?"
Gannel took a draught of ale, then said, "Our divers found it while searching for pearls. It seems that, in brine, certain stones grow like plants."
Eragon stared with wonder. He had never thought of pebbles or boulders as alive, yet here was proof that all they needed was water and salt to flourish. It finally explained how rocks had continued to appear in their fields in Palancar Valley, even after the soil had been combed clean each spring. They grew!
He came to the conclusion because the dwarves showed him coral. It's not a human belief, just a silly conclusion he jumps to, completely ignoring that being in a field hardly counts as being "in brine". Hell, if the fields were salty, the crops wouldn't grow!
[3A1A1]

Anonymous
May 15 2018, 08:23:51
Wow, and here I was trying to give Pao some credit. Thanks for looking it up.
That passage stuck out to me because it's one of the few times Eragon thinks back on his life before the series, and one of the even fewer times he references his old job.
On an unrelated note, how common are dwarven divers? I don't think I've ever heard of a dwarf going swimming, let alone diving for pearls! Such an interesting concept to waste on an offhand mention.
[3A1A1A]

snarkbotanya
May 15 2018, 11:43:37
I have no idea. Personally, I'm just Fridge Logicking all over the fact that the bigger-than-the-himalayas mountains are somehow right beside the ocean. Alaglag's map makes no sense.
[3A1A1A1]

torylltales
May 15 2018, 12:08:03
I've heard of extreme cliff-diving, but this is just ridiculous.
[3A1A1A1A]

snarkbotanya
May 15 2018, 12:35:24
Hey, Bella! Come throw yourself off this one!
[3A1A1A1A1]

torylltales
May 15 2018, 14:24:37
DERRRRRRRRRRRR
[3A1A1A1A1]

theepistler
May 16 2018, 15:32:49
Damn... I wish I could find it again, but I once saw a comic which opens with a caption saying "what we're told", and a picture of Bella looking at classic literature and saying "I've read them all before, sniff, I'm so intellectual". The second panel has her jumping off a cliff going "DUUURRR!" and the caption says "What we actually see."
[3A1A1A1A1A]

torylltales
May 16 2018, 16:35:28

[Caption: Comic with title 'What we read vs what we see'
Beneath the first column is the quote 'It was fairly basic: Bronte, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Faulkner. I'd already read everything.'
That is followed by a picture of Bella reading War and Peace, while saying 'Oh ho I am so pretentious'.
Beneath the second column is Bella running off a cliff while shouting 'Derrrr'. The lower right-hand corner says 'Source: New Moon'.]
[3A1A1A1A1A1]

theepistler
May 16 2018, 16:52:40
Bingo!
[3A1A1A1A1B]

torylltales
May 16 2018, 17:13:35

[Caption: Comic with title 'What we read vs what we see'
Beneath the first column is the quote 'It was fairly basic: Bronte, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Faulkner. I'd already read everything.'
That is followed by a picture of Bella reading War and Peace, while saying 'Oh ho I am so pretentious'.
Beneath the second column is Bella running off a cliff while shouting 'Derrrr'. The lower right-hand corner says 'Source: New Moon'.]
[3A1A1A1A1B1]

theepistler
Holy duplicate comment, Batman!
[3A1A2]

torylltales
May 15 2018, 08:34:38
Yeah, this was never a human belief.
The closest we get to humans having beliefs or even idea of their own is when in Inheritance everybody is suddenly (and largely out of character) suspicious of the elves, and there's some mention of changelings.
[3A1A2A]

snarkbotanya
May 15 2018, 11:44:07
Yeah, and that only comes in Inheritance. For the entire rest of the series, humans just have Vague Beliefs of Vagueness.
[3A1A2A1]

Anonymous
May 18 2018, 23:39:50
I remember Nasuada thinks on the goddess Goku (yeah, could you hve thought on another nme?) when she's being tortured by Galby. Not much but at least humans here have something on the way of deities.
I feel elves here are as snobbish as insufferable. While them being atheists (not nature-worshippers or even pantheists) is even an interesting idea (having a strong D&D (Forgotten Realms) influence, where each race has its own pantheon), the way that's handled with seemingly no or little conflicts is quite exasperating.
[3A1A2A1A]

torylltales
May 19 2018, 00:02:08
yes, but Nasuada is one of the Special humans that are Different and Exotic and have Peculiar Beliefs. Not the standard pseudo-medieval-european humans like Eragon and all the faceless empire soldiers and townsfolk.
[4]

ghostwyvern
May 15 2018, 07:00:17
Is it just me, or does nothing actually happen in this chapter that's worth reading or writing about?
[4A]

torylltales
May 15 2018, 08:31:16
It's not just you. The chapter can be summed up as "Eragon and Saphira fly in a strong headwind. They rest. Eragon prays. They fly with no wind. Eragon contacts Oromis by magic mirror. They fly some more."
[4B]

theepistler
May 15 2018, 17:31:00
If you're feeling uncharitable, you might say most of what's in this book isn't worth reading or writing about. This is, after all, an entire book of useless filler posing as "essential story elements". :-p
This chapter is definitely still up there, though.
[4C]

thegharialguy
May 17 2018, 18:07:15 Edited: May 18 2018, 20:28:19
This is actually one of the times where the pointless Rodan chapters could have had a use. If the character suddenly travels large distances between two chapters, it can feel jarring without dedicating enough paragraphs to describe the journey. However, if you shift the perspective from one character and then back to the first, you can have them travel large distances with losing immersion or spending a single word, as the reader just assumed the travelling took place off screen while we were focused on another character (even if we only focused on the other character for less than an hour in universe).
Or to put it another way, after Rorans whipping, we easily could have started the next chapter with Eragon arriving in Elfland.
[4C1]

torylltales
May 18 2018, 21:10:12
I agree, that could have worked well to keep the pace going, if Paolini had thought of that. But nobody ever does anything off-screen (at least not without pages of exposition to make sure the readers can keep up)
[5]

theepistler
May 15 2018, 17:29:23 Edited: May 15 2018, 17:29:53
Actually, the humans DO have a few beliefs/superstitions.
The villagers of Carvahall lacked a single overriding doctrine, but they did share a collection of superstitions and rituals, most of which concerned warding off bad luck. During the course of his training, it had dawned upon Eragon that many of the phenomena that the villagers attributed to supernatural sources were in fact natural processes, such as when he learned in his meditations that maggots hatched from fly eggs instead of spontaneously arising from the dirt, as he had thought before. Nor did it make sense for him to put out an offering of food to keep sprites from turning the milk sour when he knew that sour milk was actually caused by a proliferation of tiny organisms in the liquid. Still, Eragon remained convinced that otherworldly forces influenced the world in mysterious ways, a belief that his exposure to the dwarves’ religion had bolstered.
~Eldest, page 508
After this, of course, none of it is ever mentioned again.
[5A]

ghostwyvern
May 15 2018, 18:32:20
You know, it's almost a shame he put so much effort into making his magical world scientific. It would make for an interesting setting if spontaneous generation actually happened, or if spirits really were responsible for making milk go sour.
[5A1]

theepistler
May 15 2018, 18:51:21
Yeah. Unfortunately I think this was a case of him just trying to show off how clever and well-educated he is. ಠ_ಠ
[5A2]

torylltales
May 15 2018, 21:55:19
It's a shame that that passage and the one from Inheritance are the only references to Carvahallian superstitions whatsoever. Nobody in any of the other books act upon, mention, ask about, or otherwise act as though these superstitions exist, at any time.
[5A2A]

ghostwyvern
May 16 2018, 04:22:54
That too. Superstition and religion (or lack thereof) are important parts of culture.
[5A2A1]

torylltales
May 16 2018, 06:42:46 Edited: May 16 2018, 06:44:06
and it's not expanded on like one would expect. If "sprites" make milk turn sour, what else do they do? Put mould on old fruit? Eat little nibbles out of old metal tools (i.e. rust)? TURN THE FRIGGING FROGS GAY???

[Caption: Alex Jones ranting]
we tend to find that if a culture believes in the existence of something like fairies, sprites, mischievous little people, etc. then they believe them to be the cause of a number of different things, not just one specific problem.
It would have been nice if Eragon had made a passing reference during autumn/fall to sprites painting the leaves brown, or digging pot holes in the road, or something. Blaming minor annoyances on gremlins is a tradition with s long and rich history.
[5B]

Anonymous
May 16 2018, 04:55:59
That's what I was thinking of! I got the maggots mixed up with pebbles! Haha okay, it's not much better, but I knew there was something humans believed in.
It's too bad Eragon never acts on superstition. It would be fun to have Saphira chide him for wasting food whenever he has access to milk. Or even have him butt heads with Oromis over small stuff like that.
"Oh, come on, this works! Maybe the maggots thing is silly, but we used to put food out every night and we never had a batch turn sour!"
[5B1]

torylltales
May 16 2018, 06:54:27
or even get into an argument with someone from a different culture.
Eragon, in the dwarf village: "that milk's been out for a while, be careful the sprites don't make it turn sour"
Dwarf: "what do you mean? Milk sours only at the will of Kilf, goddess of waters, if we are too slow to accept Her gift."
Eragon: "what? No, it's sprites. They drink some of the milk and then piss in the jug because they're inconsiderate fuckers"
Dwarf: "... If you refer to Kilf's sacred whey as sprite-piss again, I will have to fight you to defend the Goddess of Water's honour."
This could also highlight another cultural difference between dwarves and humans: carvahall humans, at least, make acidic cheeses like cottage cheese, whereas the dwarves make hard rennet-based cheeses like cheddar (the whey of rennet cheeses is sweet and can be stomached; the whey of cottage cheese is sour and bitter and cannot be stomached).
[5C]

cmdrnemo
May 16 2018, 10:37:41
I don't buy it. That doesn't sound like something the people of Carvehall did. That sounds like Paolini giving his elves yet one more way to be better than humans. Silly humans are very superstitious. Writings on the wall there.
[5C1]

theepistler
May 16 2018, 15:22:09
I definitely find it rather telling that no-one (including the dwarves) has superstitions unless an elf is present to make them look stupid and ignorant.
[5C1A]

torylltales
May 16 2018, 22:06:18
It's almost like human superstition exists only to act as a convenient demonstration of how awesome the elves and/or dwarves are.
[5C1A1]

theepistler
May 16 2018, 22:50:49
I know - it's weird!
[5C1A1A]

Anonymous
May 18 2018, 23:45:55
See above for my thoughts on that. An alternative idea is that, sure, there are gods, spirits, elves, dragons, whatever but things are quite different to the truth as in existing legends galore that distort the way things are seen as well as some stuff being caused by bad trips (hallucinations caused by plants, mushrooms, even magic, etc). In other words, things are less D&D-like, where almost everything can be fixed with a magic weapon -you get the idea, more visual show-, and more mystic and spiritual (as in spiritual warfare, but not in the fundagelical sense)
[6]

Anonymous
May 17 2018, 03:44:07
You know, the whole "Dragon acts like a cat" thingy probably wouldn't be so bothersome if Saphira was actualy, you know, INTIMIDATING most of the time, and those cat moments were used make her look less like a monster. Or if she was an atual character at all.
And before anyone asks, yes, i do think that a dragon-cat hybrid could still be intimidating despite the contrasting mental images.

[Caption: Picture of Nargacuga from Monster Hunter]
This is the Nargacuga. Anyone who played monster hunter can asure you those things are dangerus as hell.
If Paolini wanted Saphira to act like a cat, THIS is the image he should have aimed for.
It notably still looks more like a dragon than a cat, though
[6A]

theepistler
May 17 2018, 12:26:35 Edited: May 17 2018, 12:27:53
Yeah, Saphira as a catlike creature would have been fine if only it was done consistently. Instead she acts like multiple different animals in different scenes depending on whatever Paolini felt like writing at the time, which is what makes it so very annoying.

[Caption: A cat with horns and dragon wings.]
(Insert Catphira picture because it's never a bad time to use the Catphira picture).
[7]

Anonymous
May 17 2018, 05:39:18
Just to note that there's nothing wrong with having mountains that dwarf Everest. Look in RL Olympus Mons (Mars), the central peak of Rheasilvia crater in Vesta, and many other examples -other thing is the effect of a mountain chain so big close to a sea-.
Everything else are just PaoPao-isms
[7A]

torylltales
May 17 2018, 11:09:06
there is, if said mountains are on an Earth-like planet with Earth-like atmosphere that supports liquid water and life as we know it. Mars is not the same because the atmosphere is 100x thinner.
[7A1]

Anonymous
May 17 2018, 17:16:01
What are you refering about?. If is to Eragon and Saphira flying over them at airliner heights with no protection of any kind, or that if you want to pass through the mountains you must climb in Hillary-esque fashion and there're no passes at much lower heights, yes, is a quite screw-up.
I don't see the problem on having humongous mountains on a world (Mars, by, the way, has an even thinner atmosphere). There're limits on the maximum height one can reach due to its mass -rock would end liquefying and the mountain would collapse- but that's all and if you're not a geologist you can handwave them away.
[7A2]

thegharialguy
May 17 2018, 18:24:27
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think atmosphere has any effect on mountain formation (it would eventually erode mountains down, but that has no real bearing on how high they can potentially get since it's such a slow process). It'd be more a subject for plate tectonics.
[7A2A]

cmdrnemo
May 18 2018, 15:28:05
You are not wrong. Atmosphere has nothing to do with mountain size. I haven't got any problems with the mountains in Alagaësia. They depend on tectonic plates meeting and moving at an angle we haven't got. Not because it's impossible. Just not a combination Earth has. It's not like Earth has every possible combination of these things. I think Alagaësia would also need to have a smaller cooler core. Thicker, slower moving plates two continents meeting beside an ocean. With everything pushing mostly toward the junction. Should produce rare powerful quakes and one heck of a mountain range. It's not outside the tensile strength of stone. That said. If you are going to make a point of having mountains like that. Use them for something! Bloody typical bad fantasy puts details in there that have no connection to anything else. Exist only to look cool. Let the PCs run around beside a nice looking dohickey. No one cares. Then because we don't care we start quoting Get Smart.
"I find that hard to believe." -many people who spoke to Max Smart agent 86 of CONTROL over the years.
[7A2A1]

torylltales
May 18 2018, 19:14:49
I think the thing that bothers me most is that Paolini put so little thought into it. He was literally like "heehee, super massive mountains, lol" because of his terrible early map-drawing, and plonked them into the story with no further thought.
The fact that Saphira and Eragon can fly up to the peaks without fainting suggests that the atmosphere is vastly thicker than Earth's, which might actually explain things like supermassive dragons and superstrong elves. But not humans.
[7A2A1A]

thegharialguy
May 18 2018, 20:30:44
I thought she explicably couldn't fly up to the peaks without fainting. Or at least the larger peaks.
[7A2A1A1]

Anonymous
May 18 2018, 22:02:50
Maybe the atmospheric gradient is different, so density falls of slowly but there's a sharp cutoff of it at larger heights. However is PaoPao and I very seriously doubt he'll have thought on that kind of details, as well as in geology (same for many others. If it's cool to have a mountain range not very large but which an Olympus Mons-sized peak stuck there, so be it).
As for sizes of mountains, Venus has larger peaks than Earth and even on its summit atmospheric conditions are unhospitable from our POV.
[7A2A1A1A]

thegharialguy
May 18 2018, 22:13:17
I don't think having peaks of varying size is such an out there concept that it's impossible for Paolini.
[8]

Anonymous
May 17 2018, 07:47:53
You guys realize there was an entire chapter of Eldest that was devoted to Vanir? using wordless magic and Oromis explaining to Eragon that it was too dangerous to use normally, right?
[8A]

torylltales
May 17 2018, 12:15:01 Edited: May 17 2018, 12:17:20
Not quite. Vanir used non-verbal magic, but as Oromis (and Brom) explained many times, magic is bound inextricably from the Ancient Language, regardless of if you think the words in your head or say them out loud.
The entire conceit of the series and the climax relied upon magic being bound to the Ancient Language. If just anyone could use magic without relying on the AL at all, the whole thing about the Name of Names and True Name slavery and all of the scenes in the series where Eragon is learning how to speak the AL and learning vocabulary words etc. fall completely to pieces.
Eragon didn't merely use non-verbal Ancient Language magic, he used non-AL, non-linguistic magic purely by willpower and instinct, which is supposed to be impossible because of what the Gray Folk did.
[8A1]

theepistler
May 17 2018, 12:20:03 Edited: May 17 2018, 12:22:16
Yup, it specifically says that he does it "without conscious thought". The rules Paolini laid down in the first and second book just took it right in the ass. Why? So we could have a "cool" scene. And that's the only justification we get.
And then it's never mentioned or used again. Naturally.
[8A1A]

Anonymous
May 17 2018, 19:34:11
And then it's never mentioned or used again.
That's how he defeated Galby
-TTT
[8A1A1]

theepistler
May 17 2018, 19:42:10
Close. When he casts wordless magic at poor Galbatorix, he does it with conscious thought and knows exactly what the spell is supposed to accomplish. Here, not so much.
no subject
Date: 2024-07-31 08:41 am (UTC)Not quite. Vanir used non-verbal magic, but as Oromis (and Brom) explained many times, magic is bound inextricably from the Ancient Language, regardless of if you think the words in your head or say them out loud.
Except we have this:
Which clearly means that Oromis knows that spells can be cast without the ancient language.