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theepistler wrote in antishurtugal, 2018-07-02 18:16:00
LOCATION: United States, California, San Francisco
MOOD:
coldBrisingr Spork: Chapter 44 - Butting Heads
Chapter 44: Butting Heads
Epistler: Or, as SnarkbotAnya suggested we call it, “Buttheads”. Which describes the entire cast of this novel.
Anyway, this chapter now has the dubious distinction of having been passed over by not one but two sporkers, so now it’s fallen to me. As if I weren’t overposting enough already. It’s a tough job, but somebody’s gotta do it.
Torylltales: And I, as her faithful
SnarkbotAnya: Oh, yeah, and I’m here too. Kinda. My life’s kicking me in the butt and shitting in my Cheerios, but I can still do part of a spork.
Epistler: Naturally, this chapter is also completely pointless. It just happens to be completely pointless with some particularly grody homoeroticism thrown in.
Torylltales: The only thing we’re lacking is leather chaps and a Pride parade float.
SnarkbotAnya: Assless chaps!
Epistler: We open with a brief, dull bit of narration about Roran leading a raid on an Imperial supply train, having been put in charge of his own squad… immediately after being flogged for insubordination. That still Does Not Compute. Naturally, because Roran is Just So Awesome, it’s a smashing success and he doesn’t lose so much as a single guy.
This is what happens when the author wants you to believe that Little Miss Sue is a “brilliant” military commander but also has no freaking idea how military strategy works. Rather than show the actual brilliance and tactics, the author just tells you that their precious Mary Tzu wins with no casualties. Sara Douglass did the exact same thing with Axis, who despite having an unreasonably huge army at his command, never loses anyone in the field (or to disease, which happened a lot in Ye Medieval times when you had a lot of guys camping together in unsanitary conditions in foreign parts. Mass deaths from disease aren't a Thing in most fantasy novels).
Despite having been flogged half to death just a chapter ago, Roran is somehow still able to fight and kills “several soldiers”, and literally the only effect the flogging has had on him is that he’s “stiff and sore” and has “a mat of scabs” on his back. Paolini doesn’t know shit about shit.
SnarkbotAnya: Hell no, he doesn’t. Apparently Roran is trying not to crack these scabs, and hasn’t cracked them yet, even though stretching or twisting should be enough. Fighting? Out of the fucking question. Hell, the ride here should have cracked them up a bunch already too. They should also be itching something awful.
Torylltales: Paolini has obviously never actually had a scab, let alone a “mat” of them. I have a scab on the top of my thumb knuckle right now, where a thin layer of skin was shaved off in a sword fight. Three weeks ago.
SnarkbotAnya: I suppose this constitutes yet more evidence that Paopao has never lived in reality.
Epistler: We’re also informed that the humans and urglegurgles fight well together despite mutually disliking each other. In a rare display of semigenuine humility Roran doesn’t take credit for this, instead thinking about how Nasuada and Nar Garglewompwomp made it so by picking out troops with “a calm and even disposition”.
Torylltales: That’s not how team building works. That’s not how any of this works.
[Caption: Gif of two women talking with text 'That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!']
Epistler: This turns out to be a lie in any case.
Blah blah, the fight is over and the Varden jackasses are busy dragging the bodies away while Roran does nothing. Well, supposedly he’s “overseeing” the work while sitting on his perfect white stallion of Sueness, but it basically just amounts to hanging around watching.
Torylltales: Which is entitled bullshit. As someone who grew up as a subsistence farmer in a peasant village, Roran’s first instinct should be to get down and help out, not to sit imperiously on his horse like some lord. The soldiers, in a realistic setting, would quickly begin to resent him for that attitude.
Epistler: Then he hears someone yelling in pain and rides over to check it out.
SnarkbotAnya: Which, again, should be cracking those scabs on his back, but as you said, Paolini doesn’t know shit about shit.
Torylltales: I disagree. Given how much he has generated in this book alone, Paolini appears to know plenty about shit. At least how to make it, if not how to recognise it.
Epistler: Some urglewurgles have tied up a surviving soldier and are having fun torturing him by jabbing him with their swords. “Noble” Rrrr-roran comes rushing in and kills the guy with his hammer. Wow, that was so completely unnecessary. He doesn’t even attempt to rescue the guy. I just love how that’s Roran’s first reaction: “Nope, he gotta die”. He doesn’t even bother to ascertain whether the prisoner is beyond medical help or anything. Plus, they have Carn. Y’know, a wizard who can heal people? Ring any bells?
Also, torturing a helpless prisoner really doesn’t sound like something a race of Noble Savages would do.
The head urglebargle, some guy named Yarbog, whines that Roran ruined their fun. Cue a charming display of smug self-righteousness from Roran, who starts lecturing him about whether he’d treat another urgleargh like that. Because Roran knows all about empathy, honest! Yarbog says yeah, sure, because everyone should be tortured before dying so that they can “prove their bravery”. Yuh-huh.
Torylltales: I actually like this moment. I’m a big fan/proponent of nonhuman races that have nonhuman morals and values, and this is one fleeting instance that fits. It makes sense for a race whose lives revolve around honour, warfare, strength and bravery to put prisoners through a trial to demonstrate their worthiness as warriors. I would like this scene even more if there had been some worldbuilding already established about what the urgals believe happens to people who die as warriors (or at least defiantly fighting to the last breath). But knowing Paolini he would have made it way too much like a thinly-veiled Valhalla clone.
I also think the humans should have been WAY more concerned that their allies think little of torturing captured enemies for the sake of ‘bravery’ or ‘honour’.
Epistler: Instead of which this will literally never be mentioned again. It’s a Big Lipped Alligator Culture-Building Moment.
SnarkbotAnya: Incidentally, the name “Yarbog” kind of makes this guy sound like some kind of pirate urgleburger, or maybe a wannabe pirate who rows a tiny boat around a swamp yelling “Yarrrrr-bog!” at passing travellers. In light of this realization, he will now be referred to by pirate references.
Torylltales: face it, Yarbog is the result of clicking on the Random Orc Name Generator. Other names generated by that site, just now by me, include Ungagh, Yargol, Balogog, Gunag. © Torylltales, 2018.
Epistler: Roran gets all sniffy because the Bog Pirate supposedly just questioned his non-existent “courage”, and tells him that unless he wants to “experience agony the likes of which you cannot imagine” (seriously, he actually says this), he should hand his sword in and do grunt work for the rest of the mission. Hooray for ridiculously over-the-top violent threats! This is so unnecessary. You know what kind of person includes threats and intimidation with their orders to underlings? VILLAINS.
Torylltales: In a better-developed work, Roran would initially feel uncomfortable with making such threats, but does so because he was advised that the urgals would not respect him without overt shows of dominance. Yarbog and co. would mock Roran for his uncertainty and hesitance in delivering above threat.
Epistler: As it is it’s just another example of Roran’s descent into hyper-violent sociopathy, already in progress.
Yar Har Har and a bottle of bog-rum tells Roran to shove it and then challenges him to a trial by combat. Or rather, a wrestling match to determine who’s in charge of “this tribe”. Weren’t we just informed that Nar Garglearglesnarglewargle deliberately picked out guys who had “calm and even dispositions”? And on top of that, it now appears that the arglewargletablefarbles here are all part of the same “tribe”; specifically, the “Bolvek tribe”. Did it not occur to anyone that this would make them more likely to gang up on their commander?
SnarkbotAnya: I guess that kind of shoddy strategy is par for the course in an army led by Nasuada, who does things like going out of her way to let people know when her political hands are tied and making racist jokes about werecats right to their king’s face.
Torylltales: Bolvek, another name courtesy of the Random Orc Name Generator.
Epistler: …by way of Mother Russia, apparently.
Torylltales: You’re thinking of Bolshevik, not Bolvek. The Bolveks are way too manly to have a ‘she’ in the name. Although it’s interesting to note that Bolverk was one of the names of Odin in traditional Norse mythology, and translates roughly to “evil-doer”.
Epistler: Coincidence? I think not. I bet he thought he was being so clever with this.
Roran says trial by combat challenges for leadership are not a thing in the Varden (which given that the Trial of the Long Knives happened is patently untrue) and gets a “fuck you we don’t care” in response. So of course he agrees to this ridiculous challenge instead of, oh, I don’t know, telling the Fail Pirate to sod off.
Torylltales: Roran: “It is not the custom of the Varden to award leadership based upon trial by combat” (seriously, who talks like this?)
Also Roran: *receives a leadership position after trial by whipping post*
In the space of one cut-away chapter, Roran, who is walking around with a “mat of scabs” on his back, has completely forgotten that disciplinary action for insubordination definitely IS a custom of the Varden. This urgal is being insubordinate to his leader, as far as outright mutiny. The established Varden precedent is to discipline him
Epistler: Honestly, Roran is so bone-headedly stupid I’m amazed he hasn’t forgotten how to breathe. Paolini is trying to present this as a necessary sacrifice or whatever, and he’s failing. Hard. This entire setup is just flat-out contrived and only exists to make Roran look “badass”. Instead he just looks like an easily manipulated, weak-willed moron.
SnarkbotAnya: Indeed. The more Roran agrees to, the more he comes across to his soldiers, particularly the urgleblurgs, as a total pushover who they can talk into doing anything. And no, it doesn’t matter that he’s going to win the match via Sue Muscles; he still agreed to the damn thing, so the damage is done regardless.
Epistler: This is a very big and obvious parallel to the scene earlier on where Nasuada also allows herself to be bullied into a stupid tribal “test of strength” and likewise exposed herself as a bad leader and an easily manipulated pushover.
Torylltales: In his quest to prove how strong, confident, and warrior-ly his characters are, Paolini has overlooked the fact that leaders who have true strength and true confidence wouldn’t even entertain a challenge to their authority. Not only are Nas and Roran easily manipulated, but also show a lack of realistic confidence in themselves and grounding in their abilities and limitations. A leader who believes they are infallible and cannot be outdone or properly challenged, and who therefore accepts any challenge that comes along as another opportunity to show off how amazing they are, is a leader who will send their army into ruin on suicide missions that cannot possibly be won. Which, incidentally, is exactly what Roran and Nasuada do (if the story were realistic and had actual consequences for the characters’ decisions and actions).
Epistler: The Horny Pirate declares that they have to fight naked. Well, okay, in their underpants. And no weapons allowed. Roran, continuing to dig himself into that “easily-swayed rube” pigeonhole, accepts these conditions. Yarr-bog then adds that this will be a fight “to the death”, and Roran is like, “oh well, if I die it’ll be a necessary sacrifice”. The fuck is with this guy? He’s supposed to be “brave”, but he just comes off as suicidal, and also a glory hog. Don’t you have a pregnant wife at home, Roran?
Torylltales: at least there are no descriptions of Roran’s glistening pecs.
SnarkbotAnya: Or his groin. Which I’m willing to bet is decidedly not hairless… excuse me, I need to bleach my brain now. Why do I do this to myself?
Epistler: Moving right along… the urblewurgles peg out a combat arena (where the hell did they get the pegs?), and Roran and the Horny Pirate both get naked. And then their underlings rub them down with bear grease. One, why was this at all necessary, and two, why the hell were they carrying this stuff around with them in the first place?
Torylltales: Somebody read about ancient Turkish oil wrestling, and it was SO (homo)erotic that they just had to write about it.
Epistler: Carn and some other guy named Loften do the greasing on Roran, and it’s barely one step away from a sensual massage. Couldn’t he just do this himself? And did we really need descriptions of Carn “work[ing] [his] way down Roran’s limbs”? Apparently so.
Torylltales: Paolini also commits a very basic novel-writing mistake: giving a name to a throwaway background character who will never appear again. Loften even has his own Inheriwiki page in which his entry is exactly 17 words long: “Loften was a soldier for the Varden who accompanied Roran on a supply train raid in Brisingr.” Even Paolini dismisses him as merely “another human” in the very same sentence where he is introduced, named, and then discarded. This is Early Elder Scrolls worldbuilding. Not Skyrim or Oblivion, I mean Daggerfall level, where every one of a million randomly generated villagers has a randomly generated name, even though you may never find the same villager twice, or need to. Quantity substituting for quality, breadth standing in for depth.
Epistler: Also, “Loften” is one of the stupidest character names I’ve ever come across. Though admittedly not quite as dumb as “Harden”.
SnarkbotAnya: Heh heh, “Harden”.
We are mature, functioning adults.
[Caption: Picture of Muttley the Dog laughing]
Torylltales: Reminds me of a Russell Peters standup comedy routine about Indian names.
Epistler: Roran checks out the scurvy urgal’s big muscles and thinks about how this won’t be like wrestling Eragon or Baldor back at the farm. Uh…
(No seriously; that’s in there. Did he and Eragon also go at it naked and covered in bear grease? No wonder Eragon was so pissy and jealous when Roran said he was getting married).
Torylltales: Roran basically gives away the ending by contemplating his strategy. While this is finally a bit of common sense from him, it should have been kept secret from the readers until the appropriate moment, giving away Roran’s plan/tactics before the fight’s begun just spoils the climax.
Epistler: The buildup for the actual fight goes on for way too long, and then Yarr-bog rushes in and smacks Roran with his horns, which knocks him over. The scabs on his back tear, but of course this is just treated like an owwie.
SnarkbotAnya: Instead of, y’know, “HOLY FUCK OW MY BACK IS ON FIRE NO THESE AREN’T TEARS I JUST HAVE SAND IN MY EYES OWWWWWW OH GOD MAKE IT STOP”.
Torylltales: As I said above, Paolini clearly has no experience with scabs and the tearing off thereof. Tearing a scab is excruciating, let alone a solid mat of them over a large area. This should disable Roran entirely and give the victory to Yarbog.
Epistler: The last time I ripped a scab off, it bled like crazy all over the place. And it wasn’t even a big scab. Thing was the size of a penny.
SnarkbotAnya: I don’t think we’re actually talking about ripping the scabs off per se, just… breaking them in places. Not that the distinction matters much in this case, though, because breaking a scab also hurts like hell.
Epistler: …pedant.
Horny Pirate charges a couple more times, and then starts coming in sideways and trying to “pull him into his deadly embrace”. But will it be a parody of a lover’s embrace? Seriously, what is with all these bad authors using “embraces” in what are supposed to be dramatic fight scenes?
Torylltales: Personally I prefer a good vambrace, especially if it has that awesome “elvish” overlapping diagonal strips design. You know the kind. Like Elrond wore in the Hobbit movie.
[Caption: Picture of Elrond.]
Now that's what I'm talkin' about.
Torylltales: Seriously, and Paolini has even quoted this as his favourite line. That and the thing about not messing with dragons because humans are crunchy.
Epistler: …the latter of which wasn’t even his line to begin with.
SnarkbotAnya: Aw fuck, I’d totally forgotten about that… yet more proof that the man has precisely zero sense of clichés or originality. Hell, at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to not know that the concept of originality even exists.
Epistler: Roran gets clawed across the ribs, but then manages to grab Literally Horny Pirate by the horns and throw him down. You know, like a sheep. He then proceeds to rape – uh, pin him down with his knee – and holds him like that for “ten minutes”.
[Caption: Picture from the Inheritance Colouring Book showing the described scene.]
Bow chicka bow wow!
I know I say this a lot, but how the fuck does anyone know it was ten minutes?
Torylltales: *puts on a recording of Unchained Melody, like in that clay-turning scene from Ghost*
SnarkbotAnya: This is like in shitty creepypastas where people somehow know exactly how many seconds they spent looking at the Creepy Shit of the Day, or exactly what said Creepy Shit of the Day looked like despite looking at it for only a fraction of a second. Sonic.exe is a textbook example of this kind of bullshit. Still, whether you’re writing a random Internet story or a novel, all I can say is STOP THAT. It’s unrealistic and gives the impression that your characters are all robots with a built-in stopwatch function. *flails arms* I AM RORAN-BOT, BEEP BOOP! DANGER, ERGS BROMBINSON, DANGER!
Epistler: Paolini clumsily tries to show the time passing with a bunch of emotionless description of the dirt and an ox lowing, and Roran’s back hurts but doesn’t actually have any effect on him, because again, Paolini has no idea how pain and injuries work.
Finally the Bog Pirate says he gives up and asks Roran to kill him, but Roran “nobly” says no. He adds that “I don’t belong to your race, and I won’t abide by your customs”.
Then why the fuck did you agree to homoerotically wrestle with him in the first fucking place? This is just priceless, you guys. First Roran caves in to every single one of Yarr-bog’s ridiculous demands over a custom he doesn’t belong to and has no reason to respect, all so he can look “cool” by being the only human ever to win a wrestling match with an urglefarglebargledingdong, then has an instant change of heart over following through just so he can look “noble”. Is this guy bipolar or something?
“Sure, I’ll wrestle with ya to decide who’s in charge, even though that’s not how us humans roll!”
TEN MINUTES LATER.
“Nah, I won’t kill you. That’s not how us humans roll.”
TEN MINUTES LATER.
“Nah, I won’t kill you. That’s not how us humans roll.”
Torylltales: The worst thing is, even in some real life human cultures, the shame of being defeated and not even killed honourably would have made him a pariah, if not suicidal. Just look at seppuku in Japan (ritual suicide of samurai who have brought shame upon themselves), puputan in Bali (mass ritual murder-suicide in preference to being defeated or enslaved), or jauhar in India (self-immolation of women to avoid enslavement or rape by enemy forces when defeat is certain). The stigma of having lost but not died would have haunted Yarbog, leading to festering resentment and hatred that might even result in a murder attempt against Roran.
Epistler: Roran then proceeds to pat himself on the back, telling Yarr-bog that he should go around bragging about how he was defeated by “the cousin of Eragon Shadeslayer”. Yes, just keep pretending that being related to that shithead makes you special, Roran. It’s not obnoxious or egotistical or anything. I don’t care what Joey from Ten Things I Hate About You said – being “cool by association” does not work outside of high school.
SnarkbotAnya: Metaphorical back-patting, of course. Though it probably wouldn’t actually hurt him to do it literally, considering that his scabs are apparently made of topical anesthetic so that they don’t hurt more than is dramatically appropriate.
Also, this whole “go around and tell everyone I beat you” thing just makes what Toryll said up there even worse. To someone from a culture like the urghwhyamialives appear to have, being spared is a grave insult and cause for social ostracism… and being told to brag about the defeat that brought said shame upon them is rubbing a salt-and-lemon-juice cocktail in the raw, bleeding, sucking chest wound.
Epistler: Naturally the Bog-Rum Pirate gives up and Roran is allowed to “hobble” back over to Carn, who gives him a blankie and goes on about what an amazing guy he is and what a great fight that was, blah blah blah Roran is Special.
Roran then pats himself on the back even more: “This won’t be the last fight between our two races, he thought, but as long as we can return safely to the Varden, the Urgals won’t break off our alliance, at least not on account of me.”
Spoilers: The human/urgleyarglewurgle alliance being under threat will never be an issue again. Apparently Roran just magically fixed everything all by his lonesome, because he’s just so awesome etcetera and so forth.
[Caption: Gif of a figure vomiting a rainbow onto a doctor]
By Snarkbot’s headcanon, it was not Roran who fixed things, but the Power of Gay, released through the homoeroticism of those ten oily, sweaty, sticky moments. RAAAAIIINBOOOOOWS!
Hilariously, the moment this is over and done with everyone starts acting like they have to hurry and it’s urgent because Murtagh and Thorn might show up at any minute. But you totally had time to waste on a wrestling match, which probably lasted about an hour. I see Paolini has been employing the magical Pause Button again.
Torylltales: Of course, everyone knows that time slows down at suitably dramatic moments.
Epistler: …such as in the middle of fight scenes so Eragon and Murtagh can throw back health and mana potions and Paolini can overdescribe everything.
The chapter ends with Roran yelling orders at people like the huge self-important jerk he is, and he’d better hope Katrina doesn’t find out her man cheated on her with an off-brand orc. Just think of all the nasty STDs those things probably carry.
The next chapter is “Genealogy”, with… oh hey, it’s me!
59 comments
[1]
bewdtamer19
July 2 2018, 18:36:45
Erm, did you receive my PM? I didn't receive any response, and I'm wondering if my message got through to you.
[1A]
theepistler
July 2 2018, 18:57:13
I did but when I tried to respond just now I got an error message about how my response couldn't get through because of privacy settings or something.
[1A1]
bewdtamer19
July 2 2018, 19:00:20
Ok, I think I fixed it. Sorry for the problem!
[2]
cmdrnemo
July 2 2018, 18:51:58
Historic thing I encountered the other day. WWII era Japan had no concept of life after surrender. It took a great deal of effort and diplomacy from both the Japanese government and the American military to get the Japanese to stand down. There were several encounters with the navy in the weeks after armistice that were very close calls. Even then a few captains killed themselves after handing their ships over to the Americans.
Given what we know of Urgal culture. None of that matters because their culture has no depth.
[2A]
theepistler
July 3 2018, 17:48:57
Yeah, in Grave of the Fireflies (definitely watch that movie if you like crying like a baby), when the main character - a Japanese kid in WW2 - finds out the Emperor has surrendered, he's MORTIFIED. Because the Emperor of Japan would never do anything that spineless and dishonourable - in his mind, at least.
I've also read that during WW2, POWs held by the Japanese were treated very cruelly because as far as the Japanese were concerned they were worthless pieces of shit who didn't have the decency to kill themselves rather than be captured. (Sadly a lot of the shitty stuff the Japanese did at that time has gone politely ignored since for reasons of political expediency. Two words: Medical experiments).
[2A1]
thegharialguy
July 5 2018, 00:27:45
Have you read The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang? Fantastic book, one of only two titles I've given a five star rating on GoodReads.
[2B]
thegharialguy
July 5 2018, 00:27:10
Hell there were soldiers on isolated islands that continued to fight the war for literal decades because they just refused to surrender so hard.
[2B1]
cmdrnemo
July 5 2018, 08:23:52
This:
Describes the situation pretty well.
It's actually a really interesting bit of history. I have been paying way too much attention to the engineering of that era's military hardware for the last few months. A little of the humanity has gotten in the way.
[3]
snarkbotanya
July 2 2018, 19:14:15 Edited: July 2 2018, 19:16:08
Assless chaps, swamp pirates, and "Ergs Brombinson"... yeah, you can definitely tell that I've been sleep-deprived this past week.
Also, I think I found something about that coloring book image that could be the root of Paopao's "you need to do it again" nitpicks: Yarr-bog's toes. In Paocanon, dwarves and urgals both have seven toes on each foot. Why? Because Paopao thought of it one day and decided, "hey, that's a great idea, I should drop it in the book! Relevant to the story? Of course, these are Essential Story Elements!"
If that is what caused the nitpicking of the art, though, I must say that it really didn't accomplish anything. I didn't even think of the toes thing until after several minutes of squinting at the picture and vaguely thinking that Bog-Boy's feet looked kind of messed up. Then I counted the toes and groaned.
[3A]
theepistler
July 2 2018, 19:27:26
Yeah, in practice the pointless extra toes just look stupid.
[3B]
torylltales
July 2 2018, 21:14:29
Chris: "no, no! I said MORE homoerotic, you're making it less!"
Artist: "this... You do know this is for children, right?"
Chris: "MORE HOMOEROTIC!" *repressed screeching*
[3B1]
theepistler
July 2 2018, 21:23:29
Q: What was the most challenging image to draw for the coloring book?
A: I think it was Roran Wrestling the Urgal since it was hard to find the right angle to show them properly. In this case I did several drawings to have them check by Christopher until I came up with the right one. In fact, Christopher was very picky with the sketches I was sending him, not only because he knew all the details concerning characters and settings of the story but it was due to his expert artistic perception since he is an artist himself. But this, far from burdening me, it helped me to get a higher quality on the drawings.
~Actual quote from the illustrator. So you're only half joking. :-p
[3B1A]
snarkbotanya
July 3 2018, 08:49:57 Edited: July 3 2018, 08:50:14
"expert artistic perception"
The same "expert artistic perception" that led him to draw this:
[Caption: Drawing of Galbatorix holding a sword with annotations.
Arrow at Galbatorix's neck with caption 'no neck'
Galbatorix's grip on his sword circled with caption 'terrible grip'
Arrows pointing to Galbatorix's right arm with caption 'where is the rest of his arm?'
Arrows pointing to Galbatorix's left shoulder, hand, and leg with caption:
Step 1: angle of shoulders
Step 2: angle of hips
Step 3: angle of legs
Step 4: Scream
]
theepistler
July 3 2018, 17:44:57
Yeeaaah, I really don't know why this seasoned professional is calling Paolini an "expert" anything. It just makes him look like an idiot.
[3B1A1A]
Anonymous
July 4 2018, 22:49:23
No, it does not.
A seasoned professional does not bite the hand that feeds him.
This sort of cheap "flattery" is exactly what he would say in a public promotional interview of his work that was organised by the person who hired him. His regular and his potential future customers will look at his entire portfolio, and they will judge this and other interviews about his work within the context they were given in and read between the lines.
Conclusion: a professional artist who knows how to deal with a difficult customer.
Anon - 4.
.
[3B1A1A1]
theepistler
July 4 2018, 23:08:03
But Paolini didn't "hire" him. That's not how illustration jobs work. The publisher does the hiring, not the author. And no it's not a good idea to publicly trash the author whose book you're adapting, but this is taking it way, way over the top.
Look, I've worked with illustrators, and a lot of them. NONE of them felt they were under any obligation to tell the public how great at drawing I am (and I do draw, and all of them know it). Pretending that Paolini is an "expert" artist just to boost up his ego when he's plainly anything but is not professional behaviour because it crosses the line from being polite and pleasant into mindless insincere flattery, and I have NEVER seen any other industry professional stoop to that level in all my long career.
What it boils down to is this: When literally everybody a certain person works with, from editor to colouring book illustrator, is doing interviews which all sound the same, in which they endlessly gush over how brilliant that person is... something is clearly up.
Bear in mind too, that by this point Paolini is largely a has-been. A seasoned pro illustrator has little to nothing to gain by fanboying over his "brilliant" art skills.
[3B1A1A2]
torylltales
July 4 2018, 23:13:14
So it doesn't make him look like an idiot, it makes him look like a disingenuous and insincere businessperson, wiling to dish out false flattery in order to get ahead.
And no, professionals don't gush in interviews, this goes way beyond what one would expect in a promotional interview.
[3B1A1A2A]
theepistler
July 4 2018, 23:26:14 Edited: July 4 2018, 23:26:28
Exactly. Professionals do not gush.
I still don't know what anyone would have to gain by publicly bootlicking a has-been like Paolini anyway.
[3B1A1A2A1]
torylltales
July 5 2018, 10:09:59
Maybe the subtly clenched fist of Ken is always just off camera.
[3B1A1A2A1A]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 10:12:40
...I don't know if that's funny or honestly kinda scary.
[3B1A1A2A1A1]
torylltales
July 5 2018, 11:21:05
'Subtly-Clenched Fist' could be the name of a spell in Dungeons and Dragons. Or maybe "Ken's Ever-Clenched Fist".
-2 to CHA and WIS, and causes target to fumble their next move (-4 penalty to dice roll). Save vs will for half.
[3B1A1A2B]
Anonymous
July 6 2018, 17:53:31
Sorry, it appears that I was not sufficiently clear in my previous post.
So, to avoid any further misunderstanding:
In my previous post I deliberately put the word "flattery" in quotes.
The gushing flattery is so over the top that it sounds insincere, and
thus, it should not be taken at face value.
I do not believe that the comment by the artist was meant to be flattering at all. Instead, I think it was a veiled insult.
Anon - 4.
.
[3B1A1A2B1]
theepistler
July 6 2018, 18:25:35
Ah, right. Yes, I can definitely agree with you on that - it absolutely reads like insincere flattery. And quite frankly, if you read it with a sarcasm filter it suddenly makes a lot more sense.
[3B1A1A2B2]
torylltales
July 6 2018, 21:20:16
Ah, that changes everything! Yes, I agree that it's probably insincere flattery, and like Epistler, I can see that from that perspective it does seem more than a bit sarcastic.
""well, since Christopher is such an expert..."
[3B1A1A2B2A]
theepistler
July 6 2018, 21:43:20
Let's amuse ourselves by imagining he said all that while making "wanking" motions with his free hand. :-p
[3B1A1A2B2A1]
torylltales
July 6 2018, 23:10:04
[Caption: Gif of man making wanking motions]
[4]
vorpal_tongue
July 3 2018, 03:24:54
SnarkbotAnya: Assless chaps!
If all these chaps are truly assless, then it'd explain all the shit they forcefully regurgitate out of their mouths.
[4A]
snarkbotanya
July 3 2018, 08:48:05
Oh great, now I'm reminded of that one South Park episode where everyone started eating in reverse.
[4A1]
theepistler
July 3 2018, 17:44:17
Or that other episode where people have butts for faces because of a genetic condition.
[5]
hergrim
July 3 2018, 17:31:07
What I dislike about the way the Urgals are portrayed torturing the Empire soldier is that societies where enemy captives are tortured so they can show their bravery tend to do it in a ritual manner. They don't just randomly poke them with sharp things while on the battlefield, they take them back home and the whole tribe is involved. And, once the captive cries out, them kill them because they've failed the test.
The way Paolini depicts things, the Wargals are just engaging in random brutality.
[5A]
theepistler
July 3 2018, 17:43:25
Yeah, that's how it came off to me too - like random brutality, torturing a guy just for fun. It doesn't help that Yarbog complains that "he would have danced for us for many more minutes" or something like that, thereby very well implying that they're just doing it for their own amusement.
[5A1]
hergrim
July 5 2018, 18:43:12
If I thought Paolini could be trusted with it, have a tense situation where the Urgals are claiming that their torture is cultural and Roran or someone else knows that they're full of shit would be a perfect way for Roran to establish a good rapport with the Urgals in general and show them that humans could understand them.
Unfortunately, Paolini would probably have Roran humansplain Urgal culture.
[6]
syntinen_laulu
July 4 2018, 08:03:02
Blah blah, the fight is over and the Varden jackasses are busy dragging the bodies away while Roran does nothing. Well, supposedly he’s “overseeing” the work while sitting on his perfect white stallion of Sueness, but it basically just amounts to hanging around watching.
Torylltales: Which is entitled bullshit. As someone who grew up as a subsistence farmer in a peasant village, Roran’s first instinct should be to get down and help out, not to sit imperiously on his horse like some lord. The soldiers, in a realistic setting, would quickly begin to resent him for that attitude.
I disagree. In hierarchical societies - which means most societies other than the most and the least complex ones - the head guy, even an elected one, is generally not only not required to work and live just like everyone else but is actively supposed not to. In a realistic setting the soldiers not only wouldn't expect him to get off his horse and work just like one of them: they might well actually be puzzled, uncomfortable or even offended if he did. (Offended, because 'If he's just one of us, why does he have a white horse and a fancy wedding and get to tell us what to do?' )
[6A]
theepistler
July 4 2018, 10:43:05
Okay, but since when did Roran give a damn about following protocol? He's supposed to be an everyman who Tells It Like It Is, etc. Well hell, this entire chapter is about him putting his personal pride and supposed "honour" ahead of following the rules. It's repeatedly demonstrated in this book and the next one that he doesn't respect hierarchy, formality, or military protocol.
[6B]
bewdtamer19
July 4 2018, 11:12:31
That excuse doesn't really work for me because Roran (and, by extension, Chris) constantly tries to portray himself as a humble, average guy who is just like the soldiers he commands. Why would he suddenly decide to start laying on his ass, doing nothing, when his men are out working?
[6B1]
theepistler
July 4 2018, 11:15:30
See, this is something I'd buy from someone like Nasuada or King Orrin, who are both accustomed to being in charge. But Roran is supposed to be an Average Joe who's only been in command for like, five minutes. He's also supposed to be a maverick who Plays By His Own Rules and doesn't stand on ceremony, etc. It just doesn't fit the type of character he's supposed to be.
[6B1A]
syntinen_laulu
July 4 2018, 21:08:32
Again, I disagree. As I said, the only kind of leadership he or anyone else in the Varden has ever heard of, let alone experienced, is an authoritarian type. Whether you come to it by right of birth, or have it wished on you by fate/luck/predestination (a.g. a dragon hatching for you) or even are an Ordinary Joe appointed/elected to it, when you have it, You De Man and you give the orders. (There isn't a shred of a suggestion in the Cycle that the Varden are even theoretically egalitarian or populist. Their purpose seems to be to overthrow the Big Bad King in order to get a better ruler; nobody at all seems to be expecting more equality.)
There's a great deal of historical evidence that in societies where the army has traditionally been commanded by the well-born, where a low-born man was made an officer he was routinely expected to - and did - distance himself from the rank and file and, in effect, make himself the kind of leader they were used to obeying. Staying matey and 'I'm just one of you lads' wasn't an option as it just didn't work.
And FWIW, in any army it's the officer's job to give orders then stand back and see they get carried out properly. If you pile in and get head-down in the physical labour yourself, you aren't doing your own job properly, and your unit may suffer as a consequence. Ask any soldier.
[6B1A1]
thegharialguy
July 5 2018, 00:37:26
And while it doesn't gel at all with the rest of the chapter, he has a vested interest in not doing manual labor right now, as his FUCKING BACK HAS JUST BEEN RIPPED TO SHREDS.
[6B1A1A]
Anonymous
July 5 2018, 07:43:07
Then again, manual labor might have been preferable to wrassling an eight-foot Minotaur man, so realism has little claim on this description, either from the physical or cultural realms.
[6B1A2]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 10:11:40
You know, I'm perfectly fine with being corrected on historical details by someone better informed than me, but your replies too often come across as high-handed and condescending to me, and I have to say I'm getting very tired of it.
That aside, Paolini definitely seems to be a fan of authoritarianism going on the way he writes all his authority figures. I think some readers probably view the Varden as scrappy underdog freedom fighters, etcetera, because that's the usual portrayal, and even in our sporkings we keep trying to spin in that way - hence this argument. But in practice they really aren't. Instead they're very much written as an authoritarian organisation, and not just in the sense that soldiers in the field are supposed to obey orders and follow protocol and so on. Nasuada is presented as a political figure as much as a military leader, and her approach is and always has been "don't question me" and "my way or the highway", and anyone who doesn't fall into line faces brutal punishments up to and including death. Remember how she flat-out told Eragon that if he didn't obey her orders and go and interfere with the dwarf election, she'd hang him? (That is if he wasn't a super duper awesome Dragon Rider guy, and that's literally the only reason). And then of course when she does take control of the country, the new, "improved" government is just another dictatorship. Literally no difference at all.
And of course, no-one is allowed to question Eragon or Roran either, and both of them act like tyrants the moment they have any sort of authority over anybody, military or otherwise. This leads me to suspect that Paolini - consciously or not - is much more comfortable in a world where making your own decisions isn't an issue - because someone else will just do it for you, thereby freeing you of the responsibility. It's not just in the text, text, but in the subtext as well. We've often mentioned before how Eragon, the supposed all-powerful hero, is never actually in control of his life, yet never seems to notice, instead passively accepting it as the way the world is supposed to be.
[6B1A2A]
torylltales
July 5 2018, 10:28:53
I have to admit, I'm guilty of projecting what I think the Varden should be onto my reading of the text, just as much as the fans. Looking at it objectively they are very much a rule-by-tyrant authoritarian regime, as much as they try to pretend otherwise (a council of elders? theoretically-elected rulers?). I might go as far as to suggest Paolini writes like that because it is the system he's most familiar with. My-house-my-rules, not-under-my-roof, my-way-or-the-highway, etc. etc. which is perfectly fair for a teenaged writer with no life experience, most households are run somewhere on the authoritarian spectrum, but Paolini was 25 when Brisingr was released. And then he doubled down on the tyranny in Inheritance when he was approaching 30.
[6B1A2A1]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 18:52:44 Edited: July 5 2018, 18:54:03
I have to admit, I'm guilty of projecting what I think the Varden should be onto my reading of the text, just as much as the fans.
Same, because I'm working under the assumption that they're supposed to be the good guys, if only in Paolini's mind.
See, when I say things like "Roran shouldn't be swaggering around on his big horse acting like he's above everyone", I'm not saying it because that's not how it should work in an historical context - I'm saying it because that's not how a scrappy underdog hero who pulled himself up by his bootstraps generally behaves in works of fiction. Given that I am an author and not an historian, that's the viewpoint I approach my criticisms from. And okay, if this is how you're expected to behave in the Varden when you're put in command - that's fine. I have no problem with that.
But there needs to be an explanation. There needs to be a transition shown from "everyman" to "self-important commander who doesn't get off his horse to order people around". It's a part of the issue with Roran's character completely changing between books. He should have issues with acting above his subordinates. He should be embarrassed, make mistakes, forget that he needs to act a certain way to maintain their respect. Until very recently, the only people he has commanded were friends and neighbours who already respected him. Instead of which he instantly jumps to acting like he belongs to a higher class of person with no transitional period whatsoever. Which is why he comes across as douchey and entitled rather than just doing things the right way.
How Not to Write a Novel calls this "Why Your Job Is Harder Than God's". In the real world, we accept what happens even if it's outlandish. But if something like that happens in fiction, you, the author, have to explain it or the reader will be like "yeah, not buying it".
Likewise, if I'm reading a real-world account of something that happened in Days Gone By, I'll accept that customs and standards and such were different back then. ...but if it's a work of fiction, then it needs to be explained, not assumed, because that's just how fiction works.
And yes, going on what we know of Paolini's background it would not surprise me if he subconsciously thinks that normal life means being ruled with an iron fist, sigh. That or he secretly wishes he was the supreme dictator of everything, sigh.
[6B1A2A1A]
torylltales
July 5 2018, 19:31:25
Especially when it's a work of fiction set in a fantasy world that is definitively not Ye Olde Historically Accurate Brittainy.
[6B1A2A1A1]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 21:07:48
Sometimes it kind of is, and sometimes it isn't. When it is I think we can safely assume it's because Paolini happened to be ripping off something that had some degree of historical accuracy.
The rest of the time we get dirt-poor medieval peasants eating chicken for breakfast and keeping things on their nightstands in their private bedrooms.
[6B1A2B]
syntinen_laulu
July 5 2018, 18:24:36
I'm really sorry it comes across that way - def. not meant to be. Am just about to go off grid for 4 days, maybe pick this up after that?
[6B1A2B1]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 18:45:20
That's great - I was really hoping not to start a fight, and thankyou for listening to me rather than getting defensive. :-) Respect for you raised. :-)
Have fun on your holiday!
[6C]
torylltales
July 4 2018, 18:41:48
sure, but Roran isn't a lord, he's a jumped up peasant boy who got made a leader because his cousin has a dragon.
[6D]
Anonymous
July 5 2018, 13:47:58
I partially disagree. There are absolutely times when it's politic for a leader to get down in the mud with the common soldier. Cyrus the Younger, for example, wasn't above literally getting down in the mud and ordering his fellow nobility to help move some broken down wagons that were holding the army up. That seems to have boosted his reputation with the army and been part of Xenophon's crush on him.
Likewise, the Roman soldier-Emperors did little to differentiate themselves from the common soldier when in the field and saved the fancy robes for civilians they wanted to overawe. The army respected them as much, if not more so than, the civilian population for this reason.
And in the medieval period, the highest praise was always given to the active soldier monarch who could and did everything that the ordinary knight did. And, depending on the circumstances, this could very well be the same work as a footsoldier. It didn't need to be long, it just needed to happen and show that they were willing to do just that.
(Of course, taken to extremes, this alienated the nobility. See: Edward II and his hobbies of digging ditches, building a peasant house for himself and just generally endearing himself to the common people by emulating them)
In this case, Roran shouldn't be helping out the other soldiers, but neither should he just be sitting there on his horse. He should be co-ordinating with the pickets or looking at the treatment of the wounded or overseeing the stripping and looting of bodies or inspecting the contents of the supply train. Or, in other words, actively commanding and not just acting like an ignorant and entitled nobleman with no knowledge of his job or any real interest in doing it.
[6D1]
hergrim
July 5 2018, 18:44:15
Whoops, that was me posting from my phone and not signed in.
[7]
Anonymous
July 4 2018, 14:56:01
It'd be hilarious is Murtagh and Thorn showed up while this was happening.
[7A]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 10:18:57
Heheh, yeah. Sadly they only show up when Eragon is around. Otherwise something might actually, y'know... happen, and the Varden might actually suffer a meaningful setback. And we all know that's not an option.
[8]
thegharialguy
July 5 2018, 00:07:41
Mary Tzu, ha. That's brilliant. Seriously, probably the best line I've read on this site.
[8A]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 10:16:51
Heheh. I wish I could take credit for that one, but alas it was one of Snarkbot's contributions. XD
[8B]
Anonymous
July 5 2018, 12:52:46
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaryTzu
[8B1]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 18:09:51
Yeah, I was disappointed when I found out Anya didn't come up with it herself. *sadface*
[9]
princesselwen
July 5 2018, 09:42:53
This chapter proves that the last one was pointless. Roran's injuries never come up again, Eragon never finds out and throws down with Nasuada about it. . . its only point was to make Roran look 'cool.'
I decided to write a brief take on the same scene. However, here the whipping didn't happen, and Roran isn't in command because he had no experience. And there's no homoerotic Urgal wrestling, either. And his hammer is actually designed for combat.
Roran straightened up, his back twinging. The battle was over, the Empire's supplies burning, save the few they had found worth salvaging. It was nothing like the savagry on display at the last village, and he shuddered at the memory.
He glanced down at his hands, wondering how he had ever come from Carvahall to here. I never thought this would be how I'd spend the last few weeks after my wedding. He smiled slightly at the thought of Katrina greeting him at the day's end.
His reverie was shattered by a man screaming.
Roran spun on his heel, racing towards the sound. Could it be an ambush?What he found chilled him to the bone. The two Urgals that had come with them had captured one of the wagon-drivers, tying him to the only tree in the area. Roran saw the flash of a blade, and the man screamed again, twisting away from the first Urgal only to be stabbed by the second. Roran scarcely had time to think. He swept his hammer down between the Urgals and their captive, jarring his arm as it rang on their swords.
"That's enough!"
"But . . . it is for honor. He must have a chance to prove it." said the first Urgal, looking almost ashamed.
"Besides, he would have danced for us many more hours," sniggered the second Urgal, leering crookedly.
"We don't torture unarmed men for sport!" Roran shouted, his fingers clenching tighter around the handle of his hammer."When your chiefs made alliance with us," he reminded them, taking a deep breath, "they agreed to abide by our customs. If you have a grievance, take it to them." Or to Eragon, if he's ever around.
"Or we could take it to the puny human . ." sneered the second Urgal.
"Those 'puny humans,' kicked you all out of Farthen Dur," drawled a voice from behind Roran. "I wouldn't denigrate your allies like that. What's going on here?" The voice came from a tanned man with a short gray beard, who stood with his boots wide apart and an annoyed expression on his face.Captain Marsden, thank the gods. Now someone else can settle this mess.
Roran explained, glancing over his shoulder, glad to see that the prisoner was still alive.
"I'll have to tell the Garzvhog and the council about this, and he'll settle this dispute," said Marsden, scowling in the Urgals' general direction. "That's the orders from higher up. Roran, see to wagon driver, and we'll clear out of here"
Roran hastily cut the prisoner free, scarcely noticing the man's mumurs of thanks, and called Carn over to see to injuries.
As they rode away afterwards, he could not erase the memory of the Urgal's face.
So, I know I don't know a lot about weapons and strategy (plus this was really hastily written and my writing isn't that great.), but I thought that there had to be a better way to do this scene. And I thought having Roran have a better character arc, where he has a mentor and isn't just plunked into command way too soon because he's Eragon's cousin, would make for a better story, that could parallel Eragon's. The Council referenced consists of humans and Urgals, and Nasuada formed it to deal with disputes between them. Because that just seemed like the sensible thing to do. Also, the Urgals are super grateful to Eragon for killing Durza, because they're particularly vulnerable to control by Shades, but I didn't have time to mention that. And the Urgal leaders don't like it when stuff like this happens, because they gave their word that they'd abide by humans customs when they made alliance with them, and if another Urgal goes against that, they see it as dishonor on their tribe.
Oh, and I wanted to show Roran's morals, not his muscles. :P
[9A]
princesselwen
July 5 2018, 11:37:12
Oh, and just to be clear, Roran didn't disobey orders in this version, either. And his commander was not dumb.
[10]
torylltales
July 5 2018, 17:30:23 Edited: July 5 2018, 17:30:41
I just realised something amazing.
Yarbog insisted in this chapter that the fight must be only in loincloths.
So, for this one chapter, in this one context... Yarbog was an anti-shirt urgal.
[Caption: Laughing dog meme]
[9A]
theepistler
July 5 2018, 18:05:07
#ISeeWatUDidThere
One of us, one of us, gobble gobble, one of us!